Joint tenancy - lots of probs with paperwork!

mellonicoley

Hi All

I posted not too long ago about whether or not my housemates and I had an unwritten joint tenancy.

Brief background:

4 of us in one house, one of whom pays rent on a different date (11th of the month, the rest of us pay on the 1st). My housemate who pays on 11th is currently trying to claim HB having lost her job a couple of months ago (but thankfully starts a new one in May!).

What's happening now:
So HB-claiming housemate requested a tenancy agreement from our LL as she needed it to show the council. He sent us a joint agreement and we refused to sign it because we don't believe we should be on the same agreement if one of us has a different rent date from the others (did some research online and found info to back us up as well). LL is now refusing to provide us with written agreements unless we all agree to be on the same one.

Is he actually allowed to do this???

I still have the email I sent him asking if he wanted the new tenant to pay on the 11th every month or pro-rata for that month and then the 1st of the month thereafter, and his reply stating the 11th every month. This is obviously different from the rest of us but he can't seem to see that it's a separate agreement! :mad:

Anyway, on the written agreement he's provided:

- The start date of the tenancy is stated as 1st October 2011. However, the last housemate moved in on 10th December 2011, so I believe a new joint tenancy would've been created on that date if she was paying on 1st of the month like the rest of us. He's decided to try to get around this by putting her start date in brackets next to her name! Which is of course absolutely wrong but he refuses to listen. Is he even allowed to backdate the agreement?
- He's put in the agreement that we're responsible for replacing tap washers and fuses. Surely that's the LL's responsibility if they need to be replaced due to wear and tear?
- Also could anyone clarify if this section is taking the p***?:

"The Landlord may end this Agreement if the Tenant forfeits and breaches any term of this Agreement. This includes the Tenant: not paying rent for more than 14 days after it is legally due (whether formally demanded or not); or his representative supplying references which were false or misleading; breaching any term of this Agreement; leaving the Property empty for more than 28 days (without permission) or it seems that he has abandoned the Property; the Tenant becomes bankrupt, their belongings are seized by bailiffs, or they enter a voluntary arrangement with the people they owe money to. If any of these things happen the Landlord has the right to enter the Property after the bailiffs evict the Tenant following a court order for possession. The Landlord may start this process by sending you a notice in accordance with the procedure set out in Section 8 of the Housing Act 1988."

The bits i've put in bold seem odd and don't agree with other things I've read on this forum and elsewhere.

Basically I want to be able to go back to him with a massive list of everything that's wrong with this tenancy agreement so any help would be appreciated :cool:

And no, our deposits are currently unprotected... another thing to get sorted out (I'll probably hit him with everything at once).

Any advice/suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks
M

HappyMJ

Do you each pay rent to the landlord seperately or do you as a group combine the money and send it all in one payment?

Where is your original tenancy agreeement? Did you ever get one?

The tenancy started on the 1st October and ended it's implied fixed term on the 31st March. So you are now on a periodic tenancy and can give one months notice. If you don't like how this is being dealt with then hand in your notice and find a new place to live with a proper tenancy agreement.

Tap washers and fuses....fair enough it's not always the landlords responsibility for everything. If a fuse blows you fix it. If a tap leaks you fix it. It's not the end of the world they are only less than £1 items anyway and he's given you authorization to fix them rather than wait a few days for the LL to come out and look at them.

G_M

1) he cannot back-date a tenancy agreement - he can only offer you a new one starting today or at some agreed date in the future.

2) you currently have (verbal) tenancy agreements. Individually. What agreements were mentioned at the start? Were any dates discussed (ie "you can stay for 6 months"? If so, you had a 6 month Fixed Term. If when the (6? 8? 12?) month FT ended, the tenancies became (month by month) Periodic (see here). If there was NEVER any discussion/agreement about a FT, then you had, and still have, Contractual Periodic Tenancies (see STP here - very similar)

3) The LL's repairing obligations in law (see Landlord & Tenant Act 1985 ) require him to " keep in repair and proper working order the installations in the dwelling-house for the supply of water..electricity.." but " not other fixtures, fittings and appliances for making use of the supply of water,..electricity." I believe (but not 100% sure) that the taps (and hence washers) would be installations for supply, as would be fuses (whereas a washing machine would be an appliance "for making use").

so no, he cannot make you responsible for washers or fuses. But do you want to make an issue of this (see below). The issue may never come up. And if /when it does, you simply quote the statute which over rules his dodgy contract and have the battle then, not now when you have other fish to fry.

4) Similarly the clause to end the tenancy is meaningless. Do not wory about, or argue about, it. Just ignore it. If the LL ever attempted to enforce it he would find it is unenforcible as it is over-ruled by statute law (see here again). (fish to fry - pick your battles)

5) Your options:

a) Ignore the offered Tenancy Agreement and continue as now. But this leaves the HB tenant struggling to make a claim.

b) Cross out all the names on the offerred TA except the HB tenant's name. HB tenant signs and returns the TA. (possibly changing the start date too though this may be queried by HB!)? Oh- oops, change the rent amount too so it only reflects the HB tenants rent, not the total house rent!

c) Continue dialogue wih LL and attempt to persuade him to offer you each individual TAs, with new start dates (sounds like an uphill struggle...?)

d) agree to move everyone onto a single 'joint and several' TA (make sure you understand the legal implications of 'joint and several'). Insist on (or simply cross out and change) a new start date (eg 1st of May). Insist same date (or just cross out /change)applies for everyone unambiguously. Either discuss/negotiate suitable rent adjustments to get everyone paid up to the new start date (eg 1st May) OR just unilaterally adjust your payments to get to 1st May and wait for LL to complain - then clearly write explanation of how your individual payments get to 1st May.

Be aware that 'rocking the boat' in any of these ways may so p*ss of this (rather stupid) LL that he gives up on you. S21 Notice and you have to start house-hunting! For this reason,

I want to be able to go back to him with a massive list of everything that's wrong with this tenancy agreement so any help would be appreciated :cool:

And no, our deposits are currently unprotected... another thing to get sorted out (I'll probably hit him with everything at once).

may tactically not be diplomatic! Maybe slowly slowly catchee monkey?

mellonicoley

HappyMJ wrote: »

Do you each pay rent to the landlord seperately or do you as a group combine the money and send it all in one payment?We pay it separately

Where is your original tenancy agreeement? Did you ever get one?Never received one

The tenancy started on the 1st October and ended it's implied fixed term on the 31st March. So you are now on a periodic tenancy and can give one months notice. If you don't like how this is being dealt with then hand in your notice and find a new place to live with a proper tenancy agreement.The agreement he's given us to sign is actually a 12 month one starting on 1st October... If I could move out tomorrow I would, but as you can see from my sig, i'm not exactly made of money....

Tap washers and fuses....fair enough it's not always the landlords responsibility for everything. If a fuse blows you fix it. If a tap leaks you fix it. It's not the end of the world they are only less than £1 items anyway and he's given you authorization to fix them rather than wait a few days for the LL to come out and look at them.Very good point but was just wondering if he's even allowed to say we have to fix them

Are you a friend of our LL's or something because you seem a tad defensive...

mellonicoley

G_M wrote: »

1) he cannot back-date a tenancy agreement - he can only offer you a new one starting today or at some agreed date in the future.

2) you currently have (verbal) tenancy agreements. Individually. What agreements were mentioned at the start? Were any dates discussed (ie "you can stay for 6 months"? If so, you had a 6 month Fixed Term. If when the (6? 8? 12?) month FT ended, the tenancies became (month by month) Periodic (see here). If there was NEVER any discussion/agreement about a FT, then you had, and still have, Contractual Periodic Tenancies (see STP here - very similar)

3) The LL's repairing obligations in law (see Landlord & Tenant Act 1985 ) require him to " keep in repair and proper working order the installations in the dwelling-house for the supply of water..electricity.." but " not other fixtures, fittings and appliances for making use of the supply of water,..electricity." I believe (but not 100% sure) that the taps (and hence washers) would be installations for supply, as would be fuses (whereas a washing machine would be an appliance "for making use").

so no, he cannot make you responsible for washers or fuses. But do you want to make an issue of this (see below). The issue may never come up. And if /when it does, you simply quote the statute which over rules his dodgy contract and have the battle then, not now when you have other fish to fry.It might come up because he replaced our old tap in the bath in December with a really cheap new one. Who knows how long the washer will last in that one! But yes, bigger fish....

4) Similarly the clause to end the tenancy is meaningless. Do not wory about, or argue about, it. Just ignore it. If the LL ever attempted to enforce it he would find it is unenforcible as it is over-ruled by statute law (see here again). (fish to fry - pick your battles)Cool

5) Your options:

a) Ignore the offered Tenancy Agreement and continue as now. But this leaves the HB tenant struggling to make a claim.Apparently she might be able to get the money off her parents. I don't know why she didn't ask them first tbh! It would've saved us a lot of trouble.... I think we'll continue as we are now unless he pushes the issue and then we'll have to sit down together and discuss it again.

Even when HB housemate was telling him she couldn't pay her rent without it, he was insisting she pay the rent whilst we all discussed the agreement 'over email'. How RIDICULOUS is that!

b) Cross out all the names on the offerred TA except the HB tenant's name. HB tenant signs and returns the TA. (possibly changing the start date too though this may be queried by HB!)? Oh- oops, change the rent amount too so it only reflects the HB tenants rent, not the total house rent!

c) Continue dialogue wih LL and attempt to persuade him to offer you each individual TAs, with new start dates (sounds like an uphill struggle...?)

d) agree to move everyone onto a single 'joint and several' TA (make sure you understand the legal implications of 'joint and several'). Insist on (or simply cross out and change) a new start date (eg 1st of May). Insist same date (or just cross out /change)applies for everyone unambiguously. Either discuss/negotiate suitable rent adjustments to get everyone paid up to the new start date (eg 1st May) OR just unilaterally adjust your payments to get to 1st May and wait for LL to complain - then clearly write explanation of how your individual payments get to 1st May.

Be aware that 'rocking the boat' in any of these ways may so p*ss of this (rather stupid) LL that he gives up on you. S21 Notice and you have to start house-hunting! For this reason,
may tactically not be diplomatic! Maybe slowly slowly catchee monkey?

I'm not particularly worried about a S21 notice because the last time we had very minor issues with the agreement he sent us, he said "ok i'll get back to you by mid week" and we never heard about it again! i honestly think he'll just ignore anything we complain about because he's really damned lazy and doesn't want to lose a single penny. Also, from what I understand, an S21 notice would be invalid unless he protected our deposits first. I doubt he's figured that out yet and I'm not about to tell him.

Do correct me if I'm wrong about that!

If I could move out tomorrow I would but unfortunately there's no real hope of that until July at the earliest

Thanks for your advice, will have to bookmark this page for future reference in case he does suddenly get active and send us an S21.

jjlandlord

Replacing blown fuses is like unblocking sinks, or changing blown bulbs: it's behaving in a tenant-like manner. So a tenant's responsibility.
Certainly to me it'd be a red flag if a tenant started to argue about such a trivial issue....

4) Similarly the clause to end the tenancy is meaningless. Do not wory about, or argue about, it. Just ignore it. If the LL ever attempted to enforce it he would find it is unenforcible as it is over-ruled by statute law (see here again). (fish to fry - pick your battles)

In most cases such clauses do not indeed apply.
But they do apply in some cases (e.g. If tenancy ceases to be an AST becausethe tenant moves to another property, etc) hence why they are pretty much standard in a well drafted tenancy agreement.

mellonicoley

I wasn't sure if it meant the fuse box, not fuses in appliances, and therefore if that was something the tenant or LL should be dealing with.

Silly I know but I've never had a tenancy agreement mention those before which is why I wanted to check

HappyMJ

mellonicoley wrote: »

Are you a friend of our LL's or something because you seem a tad defensive...

You do not have to sign a new tenancy agreement if you do not want to and if you never actually got a tenancy agreement then the implied minimum term is 6 months. Verbal agreements of a longer term will be unenforcable in court....and it sounds to me as you have individual tenancy agreements if you each pay your portion of the rent to the landlord. What happens if someone leaves the property? Do you pay more until you find someone else or does the landlord find someone else for that room?

He can say whatever he wants. You are not obliged to fix anything if you don't want to he's just given you permission to fix them quickly if you so desire. I just don't see the point in you calling out the landlord for simple tasks to replace a fuse in an appliance or replacing a washer. It's not an emergency so it'll usually be whenever the landlord has spare time to look at it. If the fuse continues breaking then yes call the landlord in. If you wanted to report them every time then do so at your risk. It's not worth it. If you appear to be an annoying tenant who calls up about a dripping tap which isn't dripping that much then they might think it's not worth the hassle and evict you. It's not a battle I want. I've only ever called up for the serious things, broken windows, hot water not working...Things that can't be fixed easily as a tenant.

Quote from this page...http://www.adviceguide.org.uk/england/housing_e/housing_renting_a_home_e/common_problems_with_renting.htm#The_landlords_obligations_to_carry_out_r

"You must take care of the property by doing the little jobs which can reasonably be expected of you, for example, unblocking drains and mending fuses."

mellonicoley

HappyMJ wrote: »

You do not have to sign a new tenancy agreement if you do not want to and if you never actually got a tenancy agreement then the implied minimum term is 6 months. Verbal agreements of a longer term will be unenforcable in court....and it sounds to me as you have individual tenancy agreements if you each pay your portion of the rent to the landlord. What happens if someone leaves the property? Do you pay more until you find someone else or does the landlord find someone else for that room? We don't pay more until we find someone else for the room... he's too lazy to look himself

He can say whatever he wants. You are not obliged to fix anything if you don't want to he's just given you permission to fix them quickly if you so desire. I just don't see the point in you calling out the landlord for simple tasks to replace a fuse in an appliance or replacing a washeras per my above post, i wasn't sure if it was the fuse box he was talking about, wish i hadn't bloody brought it up now since you guys keep going on at me about it!. It's not an emergency so it'll usually be whenever the landlord has spare time to look at it. If the fuse continues breaking then yes call the landlord in. If you wanted to report them every time then do so at your risk. It's not worth it. If you appear to be an annoying tenant who calls up about a dripping tap which isn't dripping that much then they might think it's not worth the hassle and evict you I wouldn't call up about a dripping tap but last winter the shower in the bathroom was virtually unusable for a few weeks because almost every time you turned the tap on, there was a loud banging noise and the water came out in spurts and the temperature was erratic. It took us sending a video of it to him before he would replace the tap! So I'm not the type to call up unless it was a serious problem either.. It's not a battle I want. I've only ever called up for the serious things, broken windows, hot water not working...Things that can't be fixed easily as a tenant.

Quote from this page...http://www.adviceguide.org.uk/england/housing_e/housing_renting_a_home_e/common_problems_with_renting.htm#The_landlords_obligations_to_carry_out_r

"You must take care of the property by doing the little jobs which can reasonably be expected of you, for example, unblocking drains and mending fuses."

Thanks for your advice

HappyMJ

mellonicoley wrote: »

Thanks for your advice

Then I definitely would not sign a 'joint and several' tenancy agreement. If one of your room mates leave you will be responsible for paying the rent until you find someone else or you terminate the tenancy. Leave that up to the landlord.

mellonicoley

Yeah none of us really want to sign it, but we're a bit worried he's going to get bullish about it, which is why I wanted to do some research on it first.

Thanks very much for your advice, and everyone else too. Has given me some food for thought.

I'm going to recommend to my housemates that:
-we don't mention the thing about tap washers/fuses
-don't mention that we know the "14-days late rent clause" is meaningless :T
-don't sign the agreement at all :rotfl: