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Sleep deprivation/noisy heating/water in bodged house

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  • toasterman
    toasterman Posts: 758 Forumite
    Part of the Furniture 500 Posts Combo Breaker
    jc808 wrote: »
    are you a lodger or a tenant? sounds like the latter
    how many housemates?
    robbo1948 wrote: »
    Landlords are required to have an annual 'gas safety check' - ask to see the certificate. If it was a full house let, they also are required to provide a copy of the EPC (energy performance certificate)
    It's 5 of us renting bedrooms (and sharing kitchen/bathroom). They're all separate tenancy agreements.
    I'll ask about the certificate.

    I've put an "OFF" sticker over the now-off immersion heater switch, for future use.


    They were always in a bedroom. There is still one at the house I lived in since 1996 and there is the cupboard in one of the bedrooms where there used to be one in my current house.

    They don't make a noise and if they do, something is wrong somewhere.
    Should I hear running water then?
    I hear slowly running water when someone runs a tap - about the speed of someone urinating (presumably this is my landlords taking the p155).
    And the creaking/whistling isn't normal then?
  • toasterman
    toasterman Posts: 758 Forumite
    Part of the Furniture 500 Posts Combo Breaker
    edited 7 April 2012 at 4:38PM
    G_M wrote: »
    Can you explain the heating in more detail?
    * is it gas powered?
    * is there a boiler somewhere? Where?
    * is the boiler conventional or combi? ( conventional heats water and stores it in a tank [in your room], combi only heats water when it is required ie when a hot tap is turned on)
    * Does the tank in your room also have an (electric) immersion heater (as a 2nd method to heat the water)?
    * is there a theromostat on the top of the tank in your room?
    * is there a theromostat on the side near the bottom of the tank in your room?
    * is there a thermostat on the boiler?
    * is there a time control somewhere for the heating and/or hot water? Where? If turned on, does it fire up the boiler?
    * what temperature does water come out of the taps? Very hot?
    I believe it's gas powered from the back boiler (but wasn't when we moved in - so the first couple of days it was powered off the electric).
    There's this water tank here, and this back-boiler downstairs in another bedroom (what I think was a lounge under previous ownership).
    It's not a combi boiler. Wish it was. You get hot water out of the tap if someone else hasn't used it, and you've heated it for long enough in this tank - I believe.
    Last night the water was coming out the tank at near boiling (presumably because it was set to 90). I've not tested it yet today, and I had the water off all morning because I wanted to have it running only when I could keep an eye out for it exploding.

    I think it also has an immersion heater (the lower switch in this pic: http://twitter.com/#!/BenPark/status/188322782067695617/photo/1/large ).
    The control panel only seems to set water/heating on/off and the timings. There's no temperature controls on it.
    There's a temperature control knob on the side of the tank in my room (the one that was set at 90 until I reduced it to 60).

    The only thing on the top of the tank looks like a plastic stopper to seal the water in.
    I can't see a thermotstat on the side (if that isn't the temperature control knob?). Just a sealed plastic box that says "Landis and GYR J.B.1". There's a cable running from this to the temperature control knob.
    Also in that cupboard are 3-4 stopcock-style knobs, a white thing which has written on it:
    "Drayton mid position actuator" and a load of rating information, and a red round thing that says "Groundfos super selector", "class H" and a load of numbers I don't understand. (At least I think it says "selector" - some of the letters have rubbed off of that bit).

    I've never seen the back boiler. Don't know where it is precisely, except that it's somewhere in someone else's room. I looked round that room before I moved in, and didn't see it. Could it be tiny?
    I googled "back boiler" and results suggested it might be connected to a gas fire (there is an old-style gas fire in that room).

    There is a thermostat on the wall by the bathroom. Says "Siemens" "Landis and Staefa" and 10-30 degrees.

    G_M wrote: »
    Have you or any other other tenat ever been given instructions for the heating system, verbally or written?
    Nope.
    I googled the one for the control panel in order to change the times the water/heating goes on/off.
    We've found out bits of it as we've gone along, so far.
    G_M wrote: »
    The switch (immersion heater) should only be on if the boiler is not on, not being used, out of order. Switch it off to rely only on the boiler to heat water.
    I've just turned it off permanently. As and when the boiler stops working, I'd rather have no hot water, than bodge/overcomplicate it.
    The shower in the main bathroom is electric so will give hot water, regardless.
    G_M wrote: »
    A gas boiler can only be repaired by a GasSafe registered heating engineer. If the boiler is gas (or any gas is used in the property eg cooker) then the landlord MUST have an annual inspection, and MUST give the tenants a copy of the safety certificate.

    Exposed wiring in a bathroom sounds illegal.

    The way to deal with your concerns is to write (no email, text of phonecalls) WRITE to the landlord at the address provided for the serving of notices. This is usually on your tenancy agreemnt but may be seperate. If you were NOT given such an address, you do not have to pay rent till it is provided - see Landlord and Tenant Act 1987

    Keep you letter polite, friendly and short, and list your concerns seperately ie bullet points or numbererd. Ask for a reply within 5 working days informing you what action the LL intends to take and when.

    If you get nowhere, the the local council't Environmental Health Dept, or Private Tenancy Officer, is the next step.
    It's not bare wires in the bathroom. They're plastic coated (like a normal electrical appliance mains lead)..but I've never seen wires of any kind in a bathroom, let alone running down the wall next to the shower.
    I'll check the tenancy agreement. Thanks.
  • G_M
    G_M Posts: 51,977 Forumite
    Part of the Furniture 10,000 Posts Name Dropper Combo Breaker
    edited 7 April 2012 at 11:52PM
    Stop communicating with the handyman and communicate with the landlord. In WRITING.

    Find the 'back boiler' (what makes you think it's a back boiler - more likely a conventional boiler) and check it is working properly (I assume you can speak to the person in whose room it it is.....?!):
    1) turn off the immersion.
    2) turn off the timer (does it have dual controls? one for heating and one for hot water?) Turn both off. Check boiler. It should be off.
    3) Turn on hot water control at the timer. Does boiler fire up? If not, it could be because the water cylinder is already full of hot water, so turn up the temp control/cylinder thermostat. The system will now want to increase the temp of the water in the cylinder, so boiler should fire up. Does it?
    4) Turn off hot water control (boiler should shut down) and turn on heating at the controller. Do the same as above, using the room thermostat (there should be one somewhere)

    The fact that the temp was set at 90 (your water must have been really hot! explains a lot. At that temp you will get bubbling, steam whistling, whatever. You'll also find the woodwork around the boiler expands/contracts with the heat - and could creak. At 60 you might find your problem cured (unless you also have the immersion on as well as the boiler in which case again you could over-heat again!).

    Once you've established the controls are switching the boiler on and off when needed, set the timer so it does it automatically at the times you want (twice a day? all day? etc). Leave the boiler to do the work (keeping the cylinder water hot - but not boiling!) and keep the immersion off.

    You may still hear running water - after all, there are pipes full of water leading to and from the tank so if water is drawn off.... the water will run! If there are air-locks or air bubbles in the water, you'll hear that a bit louder. There may be an air vent to release any air in the pipes but given your level of understanding of the system I suggest this is one for the handyman or a heating engineer!

    The above actions might reduce the noise a lot, but I'd still write to the LL asking for a gas certificate, and report the noise (so your complaint is on record in writing) and then make sure when the Gassafe engineer comes you are at home so you can get him to explain properly how it all works.

    Cylinder insulation jackets (red) are easy to fit and cheap at B&Q/Homebase etc (£5-8?) and will reduce your gas bill by keeping the cylinder water hot for longer AND reduce noise from the cylinder. I have two on my cylinder as well as a built in one which new cylinders all come with nowadays.
  • Back boilers are usually built into a fireplace, or at least the ones I've seen are.
    Save £200 a month : [STRIKE]Oct[/STRIKE] Nov Dec Jan Feb Mar Apr
  • dawyldthing
    dawyldthing Posts: 3,438 Forumite
    we used to have this kind of boiler when i was younger and it also was in our bedroom (was a council house). When any hot water ran it made horrific noises, but used to have to try and sleep through it. The only thing i can think of is if you put major lagging round it to try and sound it out
    :T:T :beer: :beer::beer::beer: to the lil one :) :beer::beer::beer:
  • toasterman
    toasterman Posts: 758 Forumite
    Part of the Furniture 500 Posts Combo Breaker
    G_M wrote: »
    Find the 'back boiler' (what makes you think it's a back boiler - more likely a conventional boiler)
    The handyman, and the previous owner of the property have both said it has one. That said, the previous owner's knowledge may be as bad as mine, or they may be being guided by incorrect advice.

    I will attempt to run through the checks tomorrow, hopefully after a better night's sleep, as the person whose room I would need access to, has already gone to bed.

    I've taped over the immersion button. Nobody can accidentally switch that on again. I will continue with my request for gas safe certificates.

    Thanks
  • poppysarah
    poppysarah Posts: 11,522 Forumite
    I would look at your local council's website and find out whether they have someone who deals with HMO.

    I would then ring them when they open on Tuesday and speak to them. Discuss your concerns about the lack of gas safety certificates and dodgy hot water cylinder with them.

    You could probably email them before hand with facts and brief outline of issues if you find an email - but ring them on Tuesday too.
  • G_M
    G_M Posts: 51,977 Forumite
    Part of the Furniture 10,000 Posts Name Dropper Combo Breaker
    poppysarah wrote: »
    I would look at your local council's website and find out whether they have someone who deals with HMO.

    I would then ring them when they open on Tuesday and speak to them. Discuss your concerns about the lack of gas safety certificates and dodgy hot water cylinder with them.

    You could probably email them before hand with facts and brief outline of issues if you find an email - but ring them on Tuesday too.
    Just to add to this useful suggestion, it is unclear what the set-up is in the property
    * does each tenant have an individual contract, or have you all signed the same 'joint and several' contract?
    * how many tenants are there?
    &how many storeys in the property?
    * how come people have access to your room (and are able to switch on/off the immersion)? Is there no lock?
    * how come you do NOT then have access to the room where the (back?) boiler is?

    This does sound like an HMO, which should be registered with the council and meet the council's requirements. Go the the council website and look up HMO (houses of multiple occupation) and check the requirements. Does the property meet them?
  • halfone
    halfone Posts: 114 Forumite
    G_M seems to have given comprehensive advice there, and I don't have the same set-up as you, OP, but I just wanted to add something else - all eventualities and all that.

    I'm not an expert but I've listened to your recordings and the first (hot tap) one sounds a lot like something I had when I first moved into my house. Is the noise definitely coming from inside the bedroom tank, or could it be above in the attic, with the sound travelling down the pipes? I only ask because my noise happened when a heating engineer was here fixing something else, and he jumped up into the loft, moved the 'ball valve' which was catching on a bit of plastic, and the noise stopped. (For a while anyway...it's back again now but I've found if I don't run the hot tap at full blast it stays quiet). I wonder if that first noise you've recorded could be something similar?
  • toasterman
    toasterman Posts: 758 Forumite
    Part of the Furniture 500 Posts Combo Breaker
    G_M wrote: »
    Just to add to this useful suggestion, it is unclear what the set-up is in the property
    * does each tenant have an individual contract, or have you all signed the same 'joint and several' contract?
    * how many tenants are there?
    &how many storeys in the property?
    * how come people have access to your room (and are able to switch on/off the immersion)? Is there no lock?
    * how come you do NOT then have access to the room where the (back?) boiler is?

    This does sound like an HMO, which should be registered with the council and meet the council's requirements. Go the the council website and look up HMO (houses of multiple occupation) and check the requirements. Does the property meet them?
    Each tenant has an individual contract. There are 5 tenants. It's a shared (standard, 2-storey) house but with individual tenancies for each person. It's the best way to have it, because if they can't let a room, the rest of us aren't jointly liable.

    People don't have access to my room if I'm not here. The rooms all have locks. The handyman employed by the landlord, has keys to the house and some of the rooms. Thus far, I've been here every time he's been in my room.
    The back boiler is in another tenant's bedroom, to which the handyman has access, but I don't (unless the occupant is here, and doesn't mind me going in, etc.).


    "I don't think it's a HMO, as although my local council say:
    A licensable HMO is a house with three or more storeys, and with five or more people living there, in two or more households."
    ( http://www.bristol.gov.uk/page/houses-multiple-occupation-hmo-licensing )

    ..ours is 5 unrelated people in two storeys (unless they really are counting an attic which isn't being let as usable space), living as one household..unless the separate room tenancies make us all separate households, despite sharing a kitchen, bathroom, living room, toilet, etc.
    Their pdf diagrams suggests 4 unrelated people in a 2-storey house (the attic in their diagram is not referenced) isn't a HMO.
    That's something else for me to verify maybe, as it isn't quite clear.
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