When do you say enough...rat advice

pug_in_a_bed

My rat Ted is about 29 months old, an old chap.
He had a lump removed before christmas; rats are very prone to tumours sadly. At the beginning of March another lump appeared which was removed aswell.

It turned out to be much bigger under the skin and the vet went part way round his neck and across front to remove it. The pictures below show the extent of the wound size, you can just about see the stitches going all the way around, the stitches start across his back and go around his neck to just in front of his front leg so quite extensive.



Now not a month later another lump has formed, virtually over night.

I'm fighting a losing battle, its only been 3 and a half weeks since his last op and its back again. He is chipper in himself and hasn't lost any weight but if I go for another removal then chances are in 2-3 weeks time I'm back where I started, as the time between lumps forming has reduced.

I don't know what to do! Accept that I can't win and just let nature take its course until the time comes?

Or do I remove it yet again? He recovered fine but his stitches haven't dissolved from the 2nd removal yet!

Please, I need some frank replies because I'm stuck. He's had a very good run for a ratty and seems ok, not lost any weight, eating and playing etc.

Bit sensitive at the moment as we lost our guinea pig last weekend as well

I know some people don't like ratties but I am very partial to my two boys:)

Fridaycat

I'm far from being an expert on rats, but if it was one of my cats, I don't think I would put them through yet another op. I would let nature take its course, whilst all of the time of course playing close attention to their health, and if I saw any evidence of deterioration or pain, I would then take the final decision.

Sorry about your rat.

meritaten

I havent had rats either - though I am fond of them. I would say - as long as you can pay the vets and as long as the rat has a 'good' quality of life - then you must do whatever you feel is best.
BUT - please be aware that by prolonging life you may not be doing the best for your pet..........take advice from the vet.
I wish I had when it came to my last pet - I definately kept him alive long after he should have gone. I feel very guilty about that - tho people on here were very kind, I know he suffered more than he should have.
but, pets are very forgiving and whatever you decide to do your rat will never ever love you the less.

Fosterdog

So sorry to hear about your boy, he's such a cutie

I've had rats for over ten years and tumours are my worst nightmare, more than half of mine have been lost to them (I've had well over 100 between my own pets and fostered rescues)

If I were you I wouldn't go for another op, personally I've always had a two op rule, if that doesn't work then it's not fair to keep putting them through the stress and strain.

He's made it to a lovely age and even if he had another op the chances are another lump will come up within weeks or he will start to show other signs of old age (weight loss, rattly, weakened back end, struggling to grip food)

If he were one of mine I'd be spoiling him rotten with lots of extra cuddle time, nice tasty food (even if it's not too healthy) and a nice big comfy hammock.

pug_in_a_bed

Thanks for all your replies, its confirmed my own feelings I think. I don't think the vet would do another so soon after, although they have been brilliant and very kind. The way its come up I guess it won't be too long before it affects him physically.

Rats are great pets but the only thing is the short life spans.

He's just eaten some nutella so he thinks its his birthday lol

antw23uk

My advice would be to leave him to it now. Spoil him rotten and enjoy him for as long as his quality of life will allow. Then make the decision to have him pts knowing you did the right thing.

Good luck and best wishes :T

krlyr

My "rule" with rats was a three strike one - two lumps in the same place could be a coincidence, but a third one raised alarm bells. In a younger rat, I might consider having a biopsy done to confirm if it was benign or malignant (and might have a benign lump removed a third time) but in an older rat I would be more likely to call it a day, dependant on other factors.
Given the size of the incision needed and that he's not even completely healed from that one, I too would be wondering if another operation was the right decision. It's a tough one to make but sounds like he's well loved and has had the best done for him - like you say, they're just too prone to things like this and luck was against you here.

However - just had a thought. Is it definately the tumour recurring? So soon after the operation, it could perhaps be an abcess or a reaction to internal sutures/glue. My chinchilla developed a lump after a rear leg amputation, turned out he'd reacted to the internal sutures and a capsulated abcess had formed around a few of them. A course of antibiotics to prevent septicemia if it burst internally, and warm compresses to raise the infection to the surface worked - it eventually surfaced, popped, and with daily cleaning it didn't return.
I've also had rats get haematomas after lump removals, especially when they've been particular large or in awkward places. Draining away the fluid can relieve discomfort but the body should naturally reabsorb it with time.
The vet may be able to rule this out with a needle aspiration - my vet did this with a thyroid tumour on one of my most recent rats, antibiotics hadn't worked and sadly the cells under the microscope looked to be typical of a tumour - we opted for removal but he died of complications post-op. But equally I've had the vet stick a needle in only for a fountain of pus to erupt and make it obvious that it was an abcess!

Person_one

A lot of rat owners would disagree with me here, but I never had my rats operated on. Luckily all mine developed their tumours when they were older, at least 20 months, and they were slow growing mammary tumours that didn't cause them any pain.

I let them carry on until the first day that the tumour stopped them being able to carry on as normal (and as rats are so adaptable, they could still run, play, groom themselves and have a good time with surprisingly large tumours) and then I let them go.

Its up to each individual of course, but I never felt comfortable puttig such a small short-lived animal through what is actually quite a substantial operation. The way I looked at was that the worst case scenario with the surgery (wound infection, really) was worse than the worst case scenario without (carry on enjoying life until they quietly go to sleep munching on a bit of their favourite treat.)

If I were you (and this is definitely a tumour and not one of the complications Krylr mentioned) I'd leave it alone this time, keep a close eye on him and at the first sign that the lump is causing him pain or stopping him enjoying life then take him to the vet. I know you'll miss him terribly, but sadly rats are never with us for very long, 29 months is a good age!

krlyr

Person_one wrote: »

Its up to each individual of course, but I never felt comfortable puttig such a small short-lived animal through what is actually quite a substantial operation. The way I looked at was that the worst case scenario with the surgery (wound infection, really) was worse than the worst case scenario without (carry on enjoying life until they quietly go to sleep munching on a bit of their favourite treat.)

If I were you (and this is definitely a tumour and not one of the complications Krylr mentioned) I'd leave it alone this time, keep a close eye on him and at the first sign that the lump is causing him pain or stopping him enjoying life then take him to the vet. I know you'll miss him terribly, but sadly rats are never with us for very long, 29 months is a good age!

I used to feel this way but then had the fortunate of my vet surgery gaining some very small-animal-savvy vets on their team who have been fantastic. The rats have been back with me the same day and many climbing to the tops of their huge cages - I've had to move them into carriers to limit their exercise to allow healing, because they wouldn't pace themselves! They seem to bounce back remarkably quickly from the operations. I had the two develop haematomas after lump removals from the armpit area, presumably this is more prone to it due to the amount of movement in their front arms as they pull themselves around the cage, eat, clean, etc. but other than that, the rest had pretty much problem-free ops. The one who died afterwards had a tumour on his thyroid gland, which my vet had never seen before. With him, there was no real choice - we could go ahead with attempting removal (with no idea if the tumour had already 'eaten' into any vital blood vessels) or have him PTS within the next few days before it stopped him being able to breath. The vet actually managed to get the whole tumour a lot easier than he thought but sadly lost little Ratchet about an hour or so after the operation itself.
Other than that, they all have a really great recovery and a fab life afterwards - I can only recall one ever getting a tumour re-grow, we had that one removed again as she was a young rat, and she bounced back from the second op just as well. Sadly she had a stroke and died from that a while after the second op, so no idea if the tumour was malignant and if it would have reappeared eventually.

I have had to turn down surgery on a few rats with tumours though - my vets weren't comfortable with operation on ones very near to the bladder, for example. Have also seen (was ratsitting, not my rat to make the call with though) a rat with a Zymbal glands tumour and I doubt I'd put a rat through an operation for that - the prognosis is poor and the op only tends to temporary alleviate discomfort by removing the bulk of the tumour, rather than cure the issue.
As you said, up to the individual to decide, but from my experience, the rats have all bounced back better from tumour removals than I've seen my dogs recover from their spays!

Person_one

Sadly I don't keep rats anymore. Too many losses in too short a space of time. I might one day again but not for a good few years.

I see your point Krlyr, and like most pet owners my first impulse is always 'do everything!' but I'm still not sure.

Have you ever had a rat get a wound infection post op? That was my biggest worry.

krlyr

Not that I can recall (I don't have rats anymore either - like you say, too many losses, so am trying to remember back over the last 10 years!). The haematomas needed draining a couple of times but they would have resolved themselves naturally - just was more comfortable for the rat to drain it off in one go. Had one boy get a little infection post-neuter (behavioural reasons for the neuter) but nothing that a course of antibiotics didn't fix. A nasty battle against abcesses with one girly after her cagemate freaked out (think that was a brain tumour or similar causing sudden, extreme aggression - the devil got me good too, still have the scar!) and inflicted about 20 bite wounds all over her. Two particular wounds formed abcesses but joined together under the skin so became difficult to flush out completely, the vet did a thorough job under anaesthetic to clean them all out which helped speed up recovery.
They seem to heal remarkably quickly - I remember one girly getting in a scrap and ending up with a 1" long slit right across the back of her neck, gaping open. It was late at night so I cleaned it up (always had a stash of Hibiscrub to hand for minor wounds) with the intention of getting her to the vet first thing. By the time I woke up in the morning, it had knitted itself back together so neatly I could hardly find the wound at all!