Advise please

00ec25

woodess wrote: »

IThey have said basically the LL would have to apply for a S8?

section 8 is a "mandatory" ground for possession - it means that at the time of the court hearing the tenants owes 2 (or more) months rent. Note in this context owes means they owe the previous month's and have missed (even by one day) the payment date for the current month - it is not the same as being 2 months in arrears

the mandatory bit means the judge has no option except to grant possession if the debt is unpaid at the time of the hearing - reduce the debt to even £1 below 2 months worth of rent 5 minutes before the court hearing and the S8 application is automatcially void

if S8 is awarded this is NOT an eviction - it is simply the court has ruled the LL has been awarded possession. The LL must then appoint baliffs to carry out the actual eviction, the LL cannot do the eviction himself and it will be a delay (weeks not months) before baliffs turn up so overall the process from S8 application to being physcially turfed out could take 2 - 3 months

all that said, in this case it is clearly only a matter of time before the eviciton takes place and your children will have to find somewhere else to live as it appears their current LL is fed up of them and at the end of the day he will succeed in replacing them

Emmzi

Hand on heart - did someone at the council *really* say don;t pay the rent, or did they decide not to and are now spinning you a yarn? What do you think? Clearly they have spent the money; there'd be a trust issue there for me if I felt I was being lied to.

manda1205

Emmzi wrote: »

Hand on heart - did someone at the council *really* say don;t pay the rent, or did they decide not to and are now spinning you a yarn? What do you think? Clearly they have spent the money; there'd be a trust issue there for me if I felt I was being lied to.

We also lived in a house that was in very bad condition, rotten windows, plants growing through wall inside, terrible damp and the front door didnt lock properly, we got the council out as the landlord wouldnt do anything, and they did an inspection and forced the landlord to repair, he also told us that if he didnt do it within the time scale we were well within our rights to not pay the rent. However we were lucky enough to find another house before the time scale finished. So I dont think they have lied, they were just very irresponsible in not putting that rent money aside.

Hump

The good news is that they are not as yet threatened with homelessness. It appears the landlord will have to serve a fresh notice. The landlord could serve another s21 notice (2 months) or a s8 notice (2 weeks or 2 months depending on the grounds used). If the landlord has any sense he would serve a s8 notice citing grounds 8,10 & 11 - which would give them 2 weeks notice of the landlord's intention to take them to court to obtain a possession order (see 00ec25's post above).

The problem they have is that their council will probably try to argue that they are 'intentionally' homeless and will not look to accommodate them on a long term basis.

If this happens then check whether the council has addressed the following 3 points:
1. that the home was affordable (depends largely on the rent level)
2. that the home was available for their occupation (the answer will almost certainly be yes)
3. that the home was reasonable for them to occupy

They might have an argument that the property was not reasonable to occupy because of it's poor condition.

This will be something that Shelter or other advice/ advocacy agency will take up.

For now I would do 2 things:

1. DO NOT offer them temporary accommodation with you if they become homeless (well not officially) because the council will jump on this and might not be as helpful to them than they might be if they think they (the Council) might have to secure temporary accommodation for anything from 28 days to 2-3 months (if they appeal an 'intentional' decision). Placing a family in temporary accommodation can be very expensive.

2. Get them to formally ask the Council (probably the Housing Advice / Housing Options / Homeless Prevention team) for help now. Some Councils have been known to negotiate with landlords to avert evictions - some even make ex-gratia payments to reduce arrears - plus your son should have most if not all that £3k somewhere - and that would help. Councils are often rightly maligned but in some areas they can have all the right skills to turn this disastrous situation around.

DVardysShadow

Emmzi wrote: »

Hand on heart - did someone at the council *really* say don;t pay the rent, or did they decide not to and are now spinning you a yarn? What do you think? Clearly they have spent the money; there'd be a trust issue there for me if I felt I was being lied to.

A possible explanation is that the council did say this with the devious intent of setting them up to be evicted on a section 8 Arrears - ie intentionally homeless, rather than section 21, no fault notice to quit.

This in turn absolves the council of any need to rehouse. Neat, if they did, especially if the council did not put this advice in writing.. Of course it looks like the tenants are telling porkies [quite possible], but it this possibility adds to the council's plausible deniability.

I don't know either way, but to me it does seem entirely rational, albeit unethical, for a council to advise thus.

Lance

A lot of this is going to be on where the £3000 council payments are. If they are in a bank account earning interest then very good, pay the landlord, but if the money has been spent elsewhere then they can expect little help from the council and quite rightly so as it is not the councils money it is the council tax payers..... something I assume he couple in question do not do. As for council advising not to pay rent then why didn't the council stop payments?

woodess

Lance wrote: »

A lot of this is going to be on where the £3000 council payments are. If they are in a bank account earning interest then very good, pay the landlord, but if the money has been spent elsewhere then they can expect little help from the council and quite rightly so as it is not the councils money it is the council tax payers..... something I assume he couple in question do not do. As for council advising not to pay rent then why didn't the council stop payments?

The council have started now to pay the LL direct and i understand totally where your'e coming from with reference to the council tax payers money etc.

woodess

DVardysShadow wrote: »

A possible explanation is that the council did say this with the devious intent of setting them up to be evicted on a section 8 Arrears - ie intentionally homeless, rather than section 21, no fault notice to quit.

This in turn absolves the council of any need to rehouse. Neat, if they did, especially if the council did not put this advice in writing.. Of course it looks like the tenants are telling porkies [quite possible], but it this possibility adds to the council's plausible deniability.

I don't know either way, but to me it does seem entirely rational, albeit unethical, for a council to advise thus.

Hi
Yes the council did say this over the phone but forgot to state that there is a procedure for this albeit it is not adviseable to follow this. She didnt get a name or anything so has no proof.

woodess

Hump wrote: »

The good news is that they are not as yet threatened with homelessness. It appears the landlord will have to serve a fresh notice. The landlord could serve another s21 notice (2 months) or a s8 notice (2 weeks or 2 months depending on the grounds used). If the landlord has any sense he would serve a s8 notice citing grounds 8,10 & 11 - which would give them 2 weeks notice of the landlord's intention to take them to court to obtain a possession order (see 00ec25's post above).

The problem they have is that their council will probably try to argue that they are 'intentionally' homeless and will not look to accommodate them on a long term basis.

If this happens then check whether the council has addressed the following 3 points:
1. that the home was affordable (depends largely on the rent level)
2. that the home was available for their occupation (the answer will almost certainly be yes)
3. that the home was reasonable for them to occupy

They might have an argument that the property was not reasonable to occupy because of it's poor condition.

This will be something that Shelter or other advice/ advocacy agency will take up.

For now I would do 2 things:

1. DO NOT offer them temporary accommodation with you if they become homeless (well not officially) because the council will jump on this and might not be as helpful to them than they might be if they think they (the Council) might have to secure temporary accommodation for anything from 28 days to 2-3 months (if they appeal an 'intentional' decision). Placing a family in temporary accommodation can be very expensive.

2. Get them to formally ask the Council (probably the Housing Advice / Housing Options / Homeless Prevention team) for help now. Some Councils have been known to negotiate with landlords to avert evictions - some even make ex-gratia payments to reduce arrears - plus your son should have most if not all that £3k somewhere - and that would help. Councils are often rightly maligned but in some areas they can have all the right skills to turn this disastrous situation around.

The council have stated that they will not be housing them at any point due to their arrears.However if they become homeless they may as you stated temporary house them for 28 days only. They also stated that they may be able to help with private renting but cannot find them anywhere. But as my sons partner stated who is going to take them with their arrears,no references,the fact that they are unemployed etc.
Thankyou for your time and advise

woodess

00ec25 wrote: »

section 8 is a "mandatory" ground for possession - it means that at the time of the court hearing the tenants owes 2 (or more) months rent. Note in this context owes means they owe the previous month's and have missed (even by one day) the payment date for the current month - it is not the same as being 2 months in arrears

the mandatory bit means the judge has no option except to grant possession if the debt is unpaid at the time of the hearing - reduce the debt to even £1 below 2 months worth of rent 5 minutes before the court hearing and the S8 application is automatcially void

if S8 is awarded this is NOT an eviction - it is simply the court has ruled the LL has been awarded possession. The LL must then appoint baliffs to carry out the actual eviction, the LL cannot do the eviction himself and it will be a delay (weeks not months) before baliffs turn up so overall the process from S8 application to being physcially turfed out could take 2 - 3 months

all that said, in this case it is clearly only a matter of time before the eviciton takes place and your children will have to find somewhere else to live as it appears their current LL is fed up of them and at the end of the day he will succeed in replacing them

This has been very helpful and i have made some notes i would like to thank you for your time and advise