Utility Warehouse (Telecom Plus) Discussion

Quentin

NigeWick wrote:

I disagree with your comment about "losing" credit cards as it should be easier to sort something out directly. Obviously one can use this ploy as a last resort, but, it shouldn't be necessary.

At least I made a suggestion how your members can avoid this sneaky way that your "club" stores the members card numbers for possible use in the future should there be any dispute over an account.

This practice of the UW has been going on for years, so how do you suggest a member "sort something out directly"?

It "wouldn't be necessary" to take up my suggestion and get all card numbers replaced that your club know about if the UW (and their distributors) made it clear to new members that if they provide a credit or debit card number on their applications it will be held and used at some time in the future should there be any problem getting the direct debit.

But the only way people can find out is by reading through the terms and conditions (which of course they should - but yours is a 12 page booklet of small print, and life may be too short to go through all that) where this is buried on page 6. (Lucky prospective new members who come here will know about it as it has been regularly brought up in discussions on the cons of joining your club over the years.)

Whenever anyone has had this happen to them (UW using a card to get money from a member when there is a genuine reason why a direct debit has been witheld) your CS people delight in saying that you are within your rights to do this as it is in the club terms and conditions.

No other utility company does this do they?

any company that does not give top notch service at a fair price can only expect customers to leave in droves

The situation with your club is a little different as it uses this "distributor" network whereby you sell the club to your friends/relations/neighbours. Obviously these prospects trust what their distributor "friend" tells them about the club (no-one expects their friends to string them along), so the inertia is probably greater amongst your members than the customers of other utility companies.

We know that the selling of the club starts with a lie (advertising on your website you have provided the "cheapest energy" for the last 5 years - the ASA have upheld complaints previously when you made this false claim), and clearly neglects to point out the pitfalls of joining - all well aired here - so given that, then really they should never get any members, yet you distributors do manage to bring in your mates etc.

NigeWick

Quentin wrote:

how do you suggest a member "sort something out directly"?

Contact the company first, instead of coming to this forum complaining that they are taking money for energy one has used and then maybe, perhaps writing. It appears that for some people, complaining here is preferable to trying to sort the problem out or change suppliers.

Nigel.

Quentin

NigeWick wrote:

It appears that for some people, complaining here is preferable to trying to sort the problem out or change suppliers.

No-one expects that by complaining here gets a problem solved.

People are reporting here about the underhand practice of UW storing credit/debit card numbers then using them in the future when problems arise over direct debits so that everyone is aware of it.

UW regularly break the Direct Debit rules by sending bills out late, which means that there is little time between the bill arriving and the money being taken by DD.

From time to time your members have reported here that when they have received an incorrect bill they have disputed it, stopped the direct debit (pending the resolution of the dispute), then found that instead of solving the problem UW have used the stored card and taken payment that way.

No other utility operates like this. Though top marks to UW for being super efficient in one aspect at least (ie cash collection).

NigeWick

Quentin wrote:

From time to time your members have reported here that when they have received an incorrect bill they have disputed it, stopped the direct debit (pending the resolution of the dispute), then found that instead of solving the problem UW have used the stored card and taken payment that way

I have had to dispute a bill once in five years when I was changing internet types. I phoned (not mentioning that I am a Distributor), I got a refund. No problem. Stopping payment for services that have been, and, are continuing to be provided, because of a dispute does not solve the problem. Communication does.

Nigel.

Quentin

NigeWick wrote:

I got a refund.

So you were overcharged. This is just as bad. (But not what this discussion is about).

Normally if you dispute a bill no payment is taken until the dispute is settled.

A reputable company would have amended the incorrect bill, reissued it and then collected the correct amount due.

In any case this example is not the same as people finding that UW has held onto their credit/debit card numbers and used them to take money which is in dispute.

NigeWick

Quentin wrote:

Normally if you dispute a bill no payment is taken until the dispute is settled.

A reputable company would have amended the incorrect bill, reissued it and then collected the correct amount due.

In any case this example is not the same as people finding that UW has held onto their credit/debit card numbers and used them to take money which is in dispute.

I disagree. Normally one has bought an item, taken it home and found it to be faulty. Then the complaint is made and sorted out. When one uses gas or electricity, most people expect to pay for it.

Reputable companies may make mistakes and are not likely to spot these themselves, otherwise they would not even send the erroneous bills. The person we are in conversation about never said they had not used the services, just that they did not think the company should take money from a credit card after they had used the services. My view is that they should have previously sorted out whether they wanted to stay with the company or not. Using services and then complaining about paying for them is not the way forward in my view. As to the company using credit cards to extract monies, I disagree with that too as IMHO they should have just sent a bill with covering letter.

Nigel.

Quentin

NigeWick wrote:

The person we are in conversation about never said they had not used the services, just that they did not think the company should take money from a credit card................

Then we are at cross purposes.

My original post on this topic was not meant to be about a "person".

I was commenting on the fact that UW do store credit/debit card numbers and will definitely make use of this stored info at any time in the future to get money off your members even if there is a dispute over an account.

Your members generally only discover that the UW do this when there is a dispute, and my point is that this is poor practice.

NigeWick

Quentin wrote:

Then we are at cross purposes.

I was commenting on the fact that UW do store credit/debit card numbers and will definitely make use of this stored info at any time in the future to get money off your members even if there is a dispute over an account.

Your members generally only discover that the UW do this when there is a dispute, and my point is that this is poor practice.

Thanks for the explanations over the last couple of days. In that case, we are in agreement. I don't think it's the right approach either.

Nigel.

Wig

Quentin wrote:

Why do you think that?.

If you look again you will see that tripled just stated the facts, it is illegal to do it if you have not given permission and not illegal if you have given permission, that's all tripled said and s/he was correct.

lisyloo

In that case, we are in agreement. I don't think it's the right approach either.

I agree with Wig.
It doesn't matter what any of us think is the right approach.
This is blatantly illegal.

A retailer cannot take money from a credit card without authorisation (there is something called conitnuous credit card authority which allows money to taken periodically).

The customer should be able to get their money refunded by the credit card company and then go through proper dispute procedures.

I also agree with Nigel that people should expect to pay for services they use but that does not condone companies taking money without authority.

It's exactly analogous to stealing something from a shop because you are in dispute with them over an item.
The stealing is illegal and wrong regardless of the merits of the dispute,