chargeback - payment via unauthorised agent

patbrat72

Hi,
I would appreciate any help with regards to the following:
/I will use JA for one firm and IDEA for the other as I do not want them to google out my progress, real names start with these letters and both are based in Barking, London/

in Jan 2012 my car broke down and I ordered second hand engine from IDEA, described as 37k mileage. Just after order I read few terrible posts from outraged customers, so I decided to play safe and pay by credit card (to be covered by consumer credit act). They opposed but finally I made them accepting CC payment paying on the spot on their terminal. As expected the engine broke down after 200 miles, they attempted to fix it (3 weeks) and after they 'fixed' it I had to take it for some call back from the producer. The authorised garage looked into it and confirmed what I expected: the job was terrible and the engine certainly look like 100k at least (the same RAC guy told me when towing the car). Along with their bill they issued a warning that the car is dangerous to drive. I consequently declared it SORN (taking it off the road).

I contacted my CC provider (HSBC) and filed a request for a chargeback. They have refused it on the ground that my contract was with IDEA, while the transaction on the statement is with JA, so their chargeback can apply only to JA (that I have not ordered anything from), not IDEA ('supplier' in their understanding). Till that moment I have never heard about the company (JA) and it is not trading name of IDEA, it is completely different company (with different Company House number) that in the meantime has been dissolved. They insisted I have to prove that it is the same company and that these 2 activities (order and payment) are not related in their understanding. Facing this obstacle I asked them to process the same claim as a fraud: I never authorised JA to debit my account and the only company I authorised was IDEA, so if they are different entities then IDEA passed my credit card details to third party (JA) without my consent - clear case of fraud and misrepresentation. So they replied that the payment to JA is part of the same transaction as IDEA engine delivery. In this case they do not see a problem to perceive them as one entity. They explained that it must be the case as it is the same amount and the same date. No good in explaining that it is like you are buying something from Tesco and next day when you see the same amount taken by Sainsbury, you should be surprised

They wanted to treat it just like payment scheme transaction (Paypal, travel agent) but in my opinion it is by no means comparable. I have not received from IDEA any T&C that would state that they act on behalf of JA (that is anyway dissolved). I have been in a building with IDEA logos, received their offer under their names, used their stationary to get the bill, went to the accountants room with the same logo - how would I be able to know that another company takes payment. With Paypal you always leave the site log into Paypal and authorise transaction with your password - you do every single step in control. Here you do not know about misrepresentation until you receive your credit card statement.

If you managed to get till the end of this post, please advise me what to do

thanks

pvt

Did you use your credit card in a EPOS machine, where you entered a PIN, or did they write down the card number/expiry/CCV# on a piece of paper?

Degenerate

patbrat72 wrote: »

If you managed to get till the end of this post, please advise me what to do

thanks

Make a formal complaint to HSBC about their handling of the case. Tell them that you are entitled to a refund one way or the other and you will take it to the ombudsman if necessary.

patbrat72

EPOS machine

patbrat72

Degenerate wrote: »

Make a formal complaint to HSBC about their handling of the case. Tell them that you are entitled to a refund one way or the other and you will take it to the ombudsman if necessary.

I will certainly complain, just wonder what path to take - as a fraud or chargeback? As I can see there is a massive hole when they take payments as a different company (not under trading name/register name) - it should be somehow regulated to avoid rogue traders exploiting it. You are effectively under no consumer protection as you can not prove you paid your vendor, but you can not claim money back as they are not your suppliers and you are not any part of the contract as a result. Wonder what would happen if the supplier chased you that you have not paid

pvt

Top advice from Degenerate. Do it in writing.

Ask HSBC if they think the Ombudsman will agree with their view of things?

As far as I know there isn't a single EPOS machine that indicates to the buyer which company he is "paying" when he is asked to check the amount and enter his PIN.

If they try the PayPal analogy again, point out that JA were clearly acting as Ideal's agent, not yours.

Ben8282

Reading the second paragraph of your OP raises several concerns. Firstly, it appears that you made the purchase actually expecting the engine to be faulty. ('I read few terrible posts from outraged customers, so I decided to play safe and pay by credit card' and 'as expected the engine broke down after 200 miles'). As expected???

Why did you purchase the engine from these people rather than going to the authorised garage in the first place?

You say 'They opposed but finally I made them accepting CC payment paying on the spot on their terminal.'

Could you perhaps elaborate on the nature of their opposition and how you 'finally made' them accept the card. A company either accepts cards or it doesn't. Could it perhaps be that they explained they did not accept credit cards but, as you were so insistant, they offered to get the company next door to process the charge for them? Did they charge you a fee for paying by card?

If you say you paid using the terminal in their own accounts office, I don't quite understand your claim that they passed on your card details to a third party. There were not two charges, there was one from the terminal that you used your card in. Which company name appears on the credit card receipt?

Equally I don't understand your claim in the last paragraph of your OP that you were not in control. How were you 'not in control'. Your card was inserted into their terminal in your presence and you entered your PIN didn't you?

I really don't see any grounds for a chargeback here. You paid your money and received your goods. There has been no fraud (at least not in respect of the credit card transaction).

You may of course be entitled to some protection as the goods were faulty, but I seriously wonder at the extent of the protection offered for 'second hand' goods. The engine worked when it was fitted to your car; it broke down 200 miles later. How would the credit card company determine a) how long a 'second hand' engine should last before it breaks down and b) how many miles you had actually driven since the engine was fitted, the manner in which you had driven your car, the engine which had broken down was actually the engine purchased in this transaction, that the engine did not develop a fault subsequent to it's purchase and that you had not 'misused' the engine in some way or somehow contributed to it's breaking down (as expected!)?

Did IDEA not offer any form of gurantee? Did 'IDEA Engine Delivery' actually fit this engine or just deliver it?

patbrat72

Ben8282 wrote: »

Reading the second paragraph of your OP raises several concerns. Firstly, it appears that you made the purchase actually expecting the engine to be faulty. ('I read few terrible posts from outraged customers, so I decided to play safe and pay by credit card' and 'as expected the engine broke down after 200 miles'). As expected???

Why did you purchase the engine from these people rather than going to the authorised garage in the first place?

You say 'They opposed but finally I made them accepting CC payment paying on the spot on their terminal.'

Could you perhaps elaborate on the nature of their opposition and how you 'finally made' them accept the card.

If you say you paid using the terminal in their own accounts office, I don't quite understand your claim that they passed on your card details to a third party. There were not two charges, there was one from the terminal that you used your card in. Which company name appears on the credit card receipt?

Equally I don't understand your claim in the last paragraph of your OP that you were not in control. How were you 'not in control'. Your card was inserted into their terminal in your presence and you entered your PIN didn't you?

I really don't see any grounds for a chargeback here. You paid your money and received your goods.

You may of course be entitled to some protection as the goods were faulty, but I seriously wonder at the extent of the protection offered for 'second hand' goods. The engine worked when it was fitted to your car; it broke down 200 miles later (as expected!). How would the credit card company determine a) how long a 'second hand' engine should last before it breaks down and b) how many miles you had actually driven since the engine was fitted, the manner in which you had driven your car, the engine which had broken down was actually the engine purchased in this transaction and that you had not 'misused' the engine in some way?

Thanks for your post.
Quickly through it. The car engine broke down and the garage advised to scrap it as a new engine would cost more than car's worth. On the way to the garage where I already arranged with the scrap people to collect it, I found on the internet a website claiming they offer second hand engines. I called them (Friday afternoon), asked to send me all details, confirmed 37k mileage engine and price and payment by CC. They collected the car the same day to fit it. Next day I checked the internet and found out about them (under few different previous trading names, customers claimed the engines broke down after 50-200 miles) - so on Monday morning I called them to cancel it. Despite the fact they had said they would do it in 1 week, they said they already set up the engine and I would have to pay for it anyway. When I came to collect the car, they said the price was for cash transaction and not for CC transaction (and they would charge me VAT - sic!- if I want to pay by card. I refused to pay cash, produced the email printout confirming price with VAT with CC payment and told them they can take the engine off if they do not want to accept CC payment (plus maybe 2% for a CC cost) - not to mention that I do not wander around Barking with 3 grand in my pocket. They took the payment in their office, no next door middlemen. That's to answer 'as expected' and 'finally made them'

Why used? because the car with 160k mileage with a new engine is worth still around 4500 and a new engine from authorised dealer - at least 6000+. Buying a second hand engine declared 37k miles for 3000 seems like a good deal assuming it is not, as VW authorised dealer and RAC guy observed, well over 100k miles (and I have been in no position to verify it when purchasing)

JA name appears on the statement, but you can see statement after you paid, not before. With regards to the 'in control' - you know whom you pay throughout the process with Paypal, you have to do certain operations like logging into it, you can stop at any moment, so you can not claim you did not know it was Paypal. If you are paying at the EPOS terminal, you do not have any control (apart from price) and you can not know full details (like a payee) until you are through.


Finally - my chargeback is not related to quality (or lack of it), it is based on the fact that the engine they sold is not the engine I ordered. I ordered an engine with 37k miles and received an engine with at least 100k miles. I asked them to provide me with vehicle reg number (it is obligatory for example in USA) to confirm the engine mileage and they refused. They certainly should be able to obtain the data in case the engine had been stolen etc. In my correspondence throughout they always refused to give me the reg number and offered to fix it once again. The point is though that 37k engine is worth 3000 and 100k engine is not. I even offered to cover their labour that they can refund the money and take the car (6 years old only) for scrapage/parts so they could recover their costs. they did not want to. They do not want their engine even packed in a complete car for the price they sold it a month earlier. Last but not least - the car has been declared SORN and unused after 50 miles when they 'fixed' it. In total it has been used for 300 miles since they installed the engine (so I was still 50% better off than the other customers). Pretty difficult to damage engine without burning clutches and all other stuff. Engine serial numbers are on the engine so it is easy to check if it is the same engine

Hope it explains

patbrat72

Ben,

with regards to the last edition:
they do both delivery and fitting, they do give you 6 month guarantee, but at the very bottom of the case - I bought this 37k engine to fix reliable in the car and sell it asap, just after I make 1000-2000 miles to be sure nobody would chase me with a knife for knowingly selling wrecked car. Average engine life is approx 130k miles, what makes 37k quite new and 100k+ close to 'death'. Effectively 100k miles engine is worthless for me (and / or prospective buyer) and I would never proceed with the transaction if I knew the engine is 3 times older then declared. regardless of its quality. Regardless of guarantee.

PS: it is not any IDEA Engine Delivery, strikingly similar name but without any delivery. It is called I D E A L engines (remove spaces)

Ben8282

patbrat72 wrote: »

With regards to the 'in control' - you know whom you pay throughout the process with Paypal, you have to do certain operations like logging into it, you can stop at any moment, so you can not claim you did not know it was Paypal. If you are paying at the EPOS terminal, you do not have any control (apart from price) and you can not know full details (like a payee) until you are through.

When you made the purchase you will have been given a receipt for the credit card transaction. The name of the merchant will be shown on the receipt.

Degenerate

Ben8282 wrote: »

When you made the purchase you will have been given a receipt for the credit card transaction. The name of the merchant will be shown on the receipt.

By which time the transaction has authorised and it's too late.