Selling a Gold bar

DiggerUK

George_Michael wrote: »

.....The fact remains that HMRC won't be due any tax providing that the profit made on the gold bar doesn't take the OP over the £10.600 CGT limit.
The important fact you seem to be missing is that this profit is calculated from the price difference between the date when the OP aquired the gold and the date when they sold it.....

That's were the problem comes about, you have to prove all that.
If all that was needed, was a claim that you were gifted the gold bar, or anything else for that matter, then everybody and their dog would be ducking out of CGT. Don't forget, this bar that the author of the thread claims to be getting, is worth in excess of £30,000!!

As Digger Mansions has relatives in half a dozen countries abroad, I'd be more than happy to be corrected if I am wrong in this debate, so please, by all means, show me that I am wrong.

HMRC don't do stoopid, and don't have a sense of humour.
..._

atush

And of course, while we all debate this, it is clear that a 1Kg gold bar is not a liquid investment. The OP even if he had it in his hands would take some time to figure out where and how to sell it.

Those of you with a saftey dep box of gold coins (like my mother used to have) will no doubt be able to go in during banking hours, retrieve it, drive it to a dealer, get the money, pay it back in- would take all day if not longer. But you would not be able to buy something on a sunday with it.

And of course we all noticed the difference in size/value as that is what would cause the GPs a possible capital gain. But I have no idea how France handles this sort of thing- or if it would even come under their new Wealth tax. I just pay property tax there.

LYT_2

Putting everyone straight. The gold bar in France and indeed the grand-parents are french.

Post #18 is exactly what HMRC is saying; because I will be selling a gift shortly after receiving it, I will not go over the threashold for CGT and therefore will not have to pay anything. I still will have to declare it on my self assessment form next year.

I was initially looking at selling it here, purely not to have to pay exchange rate fees. But talking to Moneycorp yesterday, I actually would get the same amount of money if I sell here or if I sell in France and then use their service to transfer the money here. Main advantage for me with the second option is that I don't have to travel with £33000 in my handbag! But then I am not sure of the tax implications if I sell in France....can I still declare CGT if the transaction was done abroad?

Bottom line is that I want to do this legally but it is not easy to find the information. So yes DiggerUK, I did naively call customs and HMRC to try to get some true answers. Might sound strange to you but I wasn't sure where else to ask. They even were not so sure at first (on the CGT) side but then called me back with some answers. I wanted to make sure I had the right information as in France you don't pay CGT when you have owned an asset over 12 years! In the UK it doesn't seem to be the case, which does mean I should sell it straight away if I don't want to pay CGT....

DiggerUK

LYT, glad you filled in the blanks, and gave some more info. It seems you are genuine.

If in your situation I would exchange bar for UK legal tender sovereigns or britannias in France, and bring them back, sell them as and when you need to, with no hassle off HMRC, as UK legal tender coins do not attract CGT. Alternative is to bring bar back, and exchange here.
If you want money in UK then bring bar back here to sell and avoid exchange fees. It is only the size of a KitKat, and can sit in your pocket. But please, double check with HMRC you will not have any CGT liability, it's a new one for me, and I still have my doubts.

Does anybody know if HMRC have a representative allowed by MSE, would be handy if we did, how do we suggest it?
Wish we had the 12 year rule here in UK.
..._

LYT_2

I kind of need the money now...and although I know nothing about gold, people seem to say that it is a good time to sell...but you seem to think that it could actually keep going up? Although saying that, it would then mean that I would have to pay CGT if I sell later. For sure, your idea of exchanging would be ideal as I could sell bit by bit (ie: below the CGT threashold every year) but this is getting to complicated for me....

DiggerUK

LYT, yes, I do think long term it is the safest place to put savings, but that's just me, and I'm bonkers...honest.

You miss what I am saying about breaking it down in to UK legal tender coins. The sale of sovereigns and britannias are exempt from CGT, no matter what the ammount. Plus they are more convenient than a big bar like what you have.

If you do need the money, just put it in your pocket and bring it home, sell in UK and save the foreign exchange. At the moment you should net £33500+
All the best
..._

LYT_2

I didn't miss at all what you are saying about breaking it down into UK legal tender coins but I really have no idea how to go about that....Where do I do that? How does it work? It seems crazy to think that by doing the intermediate step of exchanging for sovereigns or brittannias, that would mean not to have to pay the 28% CGT?!

grey_gym_sock

if you sell the gold very soon after receiving it, then there should be no capital gains tax, because the tax is only on the gain, i.e. the difference between the the value of the gold when you're given it and the price you sell it for; and you have an annual CGT exemption of £10,600 (unless you've used it on something else). so, supposing the gold is worth £33,000 when you receive it, you'd pay no tax unless you sold for more than £43,600.

exchanging the bar for sovereigns etc is only relevant if you decide to keep the gold for the longer term. the point is that some forms of gold are exempt from capital gains tax.

i wouldn't suggest keeping the gold, even if you don't need the money. (no, that's not a proper explanation; i'm just trying to show that there are a range of opinions on gold.)

DiggerUK

LYT,
These deal all over europe, give them a try.
http://www.coininvestdirect.com/en/company.html

This is an outfit in the UK.
http://atkinsonsthejewellers.com/index.php

This outfit is mentioned a lot here on MSE.
http://www.hattongardenmetals.com/

They all have offices in UK, I have used all three. Well known in gold circles because of their good prices and service.
..._

antrobus

atush wrote: »

And of course, while we all debate this, it is clear that a 1Kg gold bar is not a liquid investment...

Oh I don't know about that, gold is pretty liquid.

LYT wrote: »

Putting everyone straight. The gold bar in France and indeed the grand-parents are french.

Useful clarification.

LYT wrote: »

... But talking to Moneycorp yesterday, I actually would get the same amount of money if I sell here or if I sell in France and then use their service to transfer the money here.

Gold is pretty much the same price everywhere, and is priced in US dollars, so once you have the USD it doesn't matter that much whether you take possession of them in the UK or in France, given that you're going to want to swap them for GBP anyway.

LYT wrote: »

.
Main advantage for me with the second option is that I don't have to travel with £33000 in my handbag!

That's something worth thinking about.

LYT wrote: »

But then I am not sure of the tax implications if I sell in France....can I still declare CGT if the transaction was done abroad?

It's where you are that matters for UK taxation purposes, not where the asset is.

DiggerUK wrote: »

...If in your situation I would exchange bar for UK legal tender sovereigns or britannias in France, and bring them back,...

You're right, you are bonkers.