Do my parents need to make any changes to their Will?

monicaj

Hello

Bit shocked really, having a conversation with my Mum this morning and somehow it got onto the subject of my Parent's will. Anyhow, I felt that my Mum really wanted to share the details of her will with me and through discussion and what (I think I know about wills !!) it just raised a couple of questions which she has asked me to look into further.

It is a "joint" will - Both my parents leave their estate to each other, then everything gets shared equally between their 5 children.

1) My Mum said she needed to make a new will because she believed the solicitor who drew up their original will would be greedy and charge extorionate amounts of money for administering the will. I explained to her, that from what I understood, unless they had named the solicitor as an executor, this would not be the case as everything would be dealt with by the Executors (my eldest sister and my brother) - am I correct ?

2) As I said it is a "joint" will - i.e. one will, therefore whichever parent passes first, everthing goes to the other parent. In the event of the second parent passing, everything passes equally to their children - my Mum thinks this one will covers all the above, is this correct OR in the event of Parent 1's death, Parent 2 will need to make a new will.

3) Am I correct in saying that even where a will exists, Probate needs to be obtained for each death - Mum had no idea about this.

4) In the will, my Dad wishes to be "cremated" - he has now changed his mind, do they need to change that, OR, is it good enough that we all now know and could carry out this wish.

5) My Mum also said that they would give my eldest sister the right to handle their affairs if they become unable to do so - I think in particular she meant my Dad, who has very little idea/interest in anything "paper" - she said this is mentioned in their will, but I'm just wondering if they need to consider future Power of Attorney for my sister and understand what is involved.

Not the usual chat I have with my Mum and sorry, so many questions - but it would be really good to put her mind at rest. Oh BTW my parents are 74 & 75, very healthy and both of very sound minds so not going anywhere for a long time !! I suppose it's easier to talk about these things now - in fact she said she felt it was important as her Dad had not made a will until after he had a stroke, which was really, really difficult for everyone.

Many thanks
Monica

rochja

Hello. Wills are mine fields. If both parents want the same terms adhered to then they should have mirror wills ie 1 each. The clause about if the other partner survives the other then he or she inherits, but if not then the kids inherit mean no new will is needed on 1st death. If the solicitor is not the executor then there is no attachment to the estate. If the solicitor is holding the wills there can be a charge for that service, but many do it free. If the solicitor is not holding the wills then they should be kept in a secure fireproof place, preferably with any original documents such as insurances and investments and the executors should have easy access. Probate is required on all estates over a certain value. Simple changes to wills can be made by the attachment of codicils. It does not require a solicitorto prepare them but if anyone is likely to argue the disposal of the body take care. If not then it might be that nothing need be done - others may advise on that. The will is a totally separate entity to powers of attorney and the rules on powers of attorney recently changed dramatically. There are now 2 types of instrument so care and economics can be separate issues. There are DIY kits available. They have the potential to be a godsend when things go wrong but they also have the potential to cause strife and anxiety so thorough research and discussion are required and you need to understand what the CoP can do and how long it will take if intervention was required without consent.

sagalout1954

One thing jumps out at me, something we have avoided in our own Wills (using Trusts).
If your Mum dies first, everything passes to Dad. If he remarries, unless he makes a new Will to the contrary then when he dies everything passes to his new wife (and when she dies you get nowt unless she's put it in HER Will)!

As far as I understand it, no need for probate between husbands and wives, but not sure if that's still the case if anything was in individual names (ie not held jointly - could be an ISA or suchlike)?? If everything is joint then no probate or IHT.

If an estate is less than 5K there's no need for others to go through probate either.

If a solicitor or any organisation (bank etc) is NOT named in the Will as executor, then there is no need to use one if you can manage to sort all the legalities out yourselves - depends how complex (or maybe how bright) you are.

We were quoted £1800 to deal with Probate (actually 'Letters of Administration' given that there was no known Will) by a company sent round by Barclays Bank - the relatives bank.

£1800.........he can go and shove it - the estate was all money in the bank, under the inheritance tax level (but over 5k), the next-of-kin not in dispute. I completed both the probate form and the tax form with no problems and it's cost was £104!!!?? Beware of the sharks who call round, 'big up' exactly what needs to be done so you feel daunted, then try to charge the earth.

If the estate is a bit complex then you can employ the help of a solicitor, & if they are slow or rubbish you can dispense with their services and employ another, best NOT to name one as executor.

Your Dad could add a Codicile changing his cremation to buriel, but sometimes a Codicile can cost as much as a new Will. Alternatively, he could write a 'Letter of Wishes' and keep it with his Will. In it he could put what he'd really like. It's not a legally binding document but as family are executors the likelihood of any of you NOT complying with his change of plan is zero.

My own funeral arrangements/wishes do not form part of my Will, but are indicated separately in my Letter of Wishes (so I can change that as often as I like). It's dated and signed (but not necessary for a witness).

Parents should consider the Power of Attorney, there are 2 separate ones, one to manage finance and the other for Health/Welfare. You can also do these yourselves if arrangements won't be complicated. Forms and how to complete them are available on-line. Again, not as daunting as it looks, I'm halfway through doing my Mothers, the actual form (finance one) was easy enough but I haven't looked at the application form which goes with it yet - think it's got 15 pages!

monicaj

rochja wrote: »

Hello. Wills are mine fields. If both parents want the same terms adhered to then they should have mirror wills ie 1 each. The clause about if the other partner survives the other then he or she inherits, but if not then the kids inherit mean no new will is needed on 1st death.

Simple changes to wills can be made by the attachment of codicils. It does not require a solicitorto prepare them but if anyone is likely to argue the disposal of the body take care. If not then it might be that nothing need be done - others may advise on that.

The will is a totally separate entity to powers of attorney and the rules on powers of attorney recently changed dramatically. There are now 2 types of instrument so care and economics can be separate issues. There are DIY kits available. They have the potential to be a godsend when things go wrong but they also have the potential to cause strife and anxiety so thorough research and discussion are required and you need to understand what the CoP can do and how long it will take if intervention was required without consent.

Thank you so much for your quick response - it's more or less confirmed what I believed - I'm still a bit confused about this 1 will though - Mum is adamant it is 1 will signed by them both mirroring each others wishes not 1 will each, in which case, is it still that neither would need to re-write a will in the event of the first death? sorry if I sound a bit dumb ....

I agree the POA needs looking into a lot more - just so both they and my sister have a clearer understanding of what is required and I suppose come to a mutual agreement about when this is likely to be needed. I'll try and print off some easy to understand information for them - at least it's a start.

Oh dear - I really don't like talking/thinking about it but I guess these things come with age for us all.

margaretclare

I can confirm that you need one will each, not one for the two of you.

This is what we've done. 'Mirror wills', whichever one of us dies first - apart from a few individual and personal bequests - leaves whole estate to the surviving spouse. On the second death the estate is split between named descendants. Because we have a second marriage and we're leaving to step-grandchildren they have all had to be named individually. Otherwise, leaving to 'my grandchildren' takes in only the direct descendants of whichever spouse survives.

John_Pierpoint

One recommendation from the financial advisers is to leave the survivor of the couple everything, but in the form of an interest in possession trust (more realistically described as "a life interest") and then the person who died can also specify who gets what of his/hers at the second death.

This trust arrangement can also protect half the joint wealth against claims (eg for care home fees). By appointing perhaps the beneficiary and two of the children as trustees, this means that half the joint estate is under the management of three people. Not a total disaster if one is struck down by a stroke overnight.

It to some extent depends on how close and rational you all are as a family.
The solicitor writing the will can explain and advise.

The only other observation I would make is: "Don't rely on the keeper of the will to regularly review it". Personally I would keep an eye on its terms and conditions annually. HMRC is increasingly becoming the uninvited guest at wakes. The beneficiary who gets paid first.

Next week we have the annual budget and it could include changes that would make some provisions in some wills obsolescent.

We are still getting questions on the "Saving Tax" part of the forum about wills that were written before the considerable changes made since:
To trusts in 2006 and in 2007 the transferable nil rate band (ie a couple can get up to £625,000 as a nil rate band for Inheritance tax).

sagalout1954

margaretclare wrote: »

I can confirm that you need one will each, not one for the two of you.

This is what we've done. 'Mirror wills', whichever one of us dies first - apart from a few individual and personal bequests - leaves whole estate to the surviving spouse. On the second death the estate is split between named descendants. Because we have a second marriage and we're leaving to step-grandchildren they have all had to be named individually. Otherwise, leaving to 'my grandchildren' takes in only the direct descendants of whichever spouse survives.

Am I right in saying this works just fine UNLESS the surviving spouse remarries again, which ordinarily invalidates any current Will? So the survivors earlier Will splitting the estate between named descendants won't be worth a jot........or have things changed regarding remarriage?

I could be wrong MC and I'm sure someone will confirm if I am.

PS Think I just found the answer here http://www.ageuk.org.uk/health-wellbeing/relationships-and-family/financial-and-legal-tips-before-remarrying/ Remarriage invalidates a Will, but you can insert a clause overriding this apparently.

monicaj

Oh thank you all so much for your help - my Mum has just called me to say that there is a will for each of them - so that one is sorted.

I'm sure when she was reading through the first part of the will, trying to establish if the solicitor was named as a executor, she mentioned the executors as trustees as well. Not sure what all this meant - but some of the above posts suggest they have thought this through. They want me to read through the will when I next visit (not really keen on that idea) but she thinks it would be a good idea. I'll also print out the advice given here - so thanks again for that.

The only experience I have is of completing the Probate for my late mother-in-law, on behalf of FIL as she had Savings etc in her sole name. As you say not difficult and a cost of around £100.

Still seems surreal to have had this conversation with my Mum today.........

margaretclare

sagalout1954 wrote: »

Am I right in saying this works just fine UNLESS the surviving spouse remarries again, which ordinarily invalidates any current Will? So the survivors earlier Will splitting the estate between named descendants won't be worth a jot........or have things changed regarding remarriage?

I could be wrong MC and I'm sure someone will confirm if I am.

PS Think I just found the answer here http://www.ageuk.org.uk/health-wellbeing/relationships-and-family/financial-and-legal-tips-before-remarrying/ Remarriage invalidates a Will, but you can insert a clause overriding this apparently.

Yes, you're right. Marriage automatically invalidates any existing will. It's necessary to make a new will following marriage or remarriage. Otherwise, if you didn't, your new spouse would automatically inherit your whole estate under the intestacy laws.

John_Pierpoint

monicaj wrote: »

Oh thank you all so much for your help - my Mum has just called me to say that there is a will for each of them - so that one is sorted.

I'm sure when she was reading through the first part of the will, trying to establish if the solicitor was named as a executor, she mentioned the executors as trustees as well. Not sure what all this means but she wants me to read through the will when I next visit (not really keen on that idea) but she thinks it would be a good idea. I'll also print out the advice given here - so thanks again for that.

Still seems surreal to have had this conversation with my Mum today.........

Legally speaking the estate, when owned and administered by the executor, is a trust.
Some wills spell this out, especially if they are covering the possibility that both members of a couple could die together in (say) a car crash.
Traditionally a will would leave most of the estate to beneficiaries that "survived me by xx days" (where xx is typically 30) In reality it is going to take probably several months before anyone inherits anything - especially if there is IHT to be paid.
This type of clause is no longer popular - I think there are tax implications. So some sort of trust is used instead?

thebeard2002

sagalout1954 wrote: »

One thing jumps out at me, something we have avoided in our own Wills (using Trusts).
If your Mum dies first, everything passes to Dad. If he remarries, unless he makes a new Will to the contrary then when he dies everything passes to his new wife (and when she dies you get nowt unless she's put it in HER Will)!

As far as I understand it, no need for probate between husbands and wives, but not sure if that's still the case if anything was in individual names (ie not held jointly - could be an ISA or suchlike)?? If everything is joint then no probate or IHT.

If an estate is less than 5K there's no need for others to go through probate either.

If a solicitor or any organisation (bank etc) is NOT named in the Will as executor, then there is no need to use one if you can manage to sort all the legalities out yourselves - depends how complex (or maybe how bright) you are.

We were quoted £1800 to deal with Probate (actually 'Letters of Administration' given that there was no known Will) by a company sent round by Barclays Bank - the relatives bank.

£1800.........he can go and shove it - the estate was all money in the bank, under the inheritance tax level (but over 5k), the next-of-kin not in dispute. I completed both the probate form and the tax form with no problems and it's cost was £104!!!?? Beware of the sharks who call round, 'big up' exactly what needs to be done so you feel daunted, then try to charge the earth.

If the estate is a bit complex then you can employ the help of a solicitor, & if they are slow or rubbish you can dispense with their services and employ another, best NOT to name one as executor.

Your Dad could add a Codicile changing his cremation to buriel, but sometimes a Codicile can cost as much as a new Will. Alternatively, he could write a 'Letter of Wishes' and keep it with his Will. In it he could put what he'd really like. It's not a legally binding document but as family are executors the likelihood of any of you NOT complying with his change of plan is zero.

My own funeral arrangements/wishes do not form part of my Will, but are indicated separately in my Letter of Wishes (so I can change that as often as I like). It's dated and signed (but not necessary for a witness).

Parents should consider the Power of Attorney, there are 2 separate ones, one to manage finance and the other for Health/Welfare. You can also do these yourselves if arrangements won't be complicated. Forms and how to complete them are available on-line. Again, not as daunting as it looks, I'm halfway through doing my Mothers, the actual form (finance one) was easy enough but I haven't looked at the application form which goes with it yet - think it's got 15 pages!

I'm just going through this at the moment on behalf of my mother - she is asset rich (they have lived in their house for more than 40 years in the SE) but cash poor.
My Dad has a left a small number of bank accounts in his name. The company sent round by Barclays as "advisors", but in fact to pitch for their business have quoted £8k+.
As far as I can see there is a risk of liability on me if I get the figures wrong, but seeing as she is the sole benefactor and will see all of the figures before I submit them, this seems unlikely to me. What other risks do I have in doing probate myself?