Southeastern Penalty Fare

northstar23

Hi all,

Just wanted to garner some advice after being issued with a "Faliure To Carry" penalty by Southeastern last night.

I travelled home from work last night, and just before my final destination I discovered that instead of carrying my season ticket I had actually picked up an identical wallet containing my Network Railcard.

My final destination was Canterbury West which normally has barrier operation in control, so I phoned my partner and asked her to meet me at the station with the correct ticket (we live 2 mins away), the idea being she could pass it over the barriers to me and if necessary I could explain the situation to staff. I use the station every day and given how reasonable they usually are I didn't forsee this being a problem

No regular staff were on duty, and I was prevented from doing this by a Penalty Fare inspector, who then gave me a £20 fine despite me then showing the correct ticket minutes later. His argument was that someone else could have used my ticket... I argued that this was impossible as it contained a photocard and any such attempt to use the ticket should have been prevented by inspectors. This recieved no reply.

I just wanted to get some advice about the value of an appeal... am I likely to have the fine waived as I demonstrated a valid ticket, or will they just uphold the letter of the law in its purest form and fine me anyway? Being fined for making an honest mistake is a bit frustrating, doubly so when in the circumstances I showed a valid ticket. I have no doubt some people on here will think I deserve the fine and probably a few years in prison on top because "rules are rules and I broke them" but surely common sense has to be exercised somewhere?

yorkie2

It's not a fine; a fine for travelling without a valid ticket on the Railway would be far higher than £20 (times that amount by around 10...), it's a fare that they are allowed to charge by Penalty Fare Legislation (which I personally disagree with, and yes I get fed up of people who support PFs too but there's nothing we can do about that!).

I wouldn't say it was "impossible" for anyone else to use your ticket as for many journeys in the South East area tickets are typically only checked by machines and the photocard won't prevent that.

However it is definitely worth appealing and for this particular case you are likely to win an appeal. Send a copy of your Season and photocard to the address shown on the penalty fare.

I am surprised the person who issued the penalty fare did not tell you that.

Southeastern's penalty fare page is very basic but most operators who run penalty fare schemes do explain this on their website, so it is highly likely to apply to SET too.

Livingthedream

northstar23 wrote: »

I just wanted to get some advice about the value of an appeal... am I likely to have the fine waived as I demonstrated a valid ticket

With what you have told us, I would defiantly advise you to appeal, you have nothing to lose and perhaps everything to gain. I Would emphasise on the fact that that you made an honest mistake and forgot your season ticket that day, enclose a photocopy of you season ticket and see what happens. Most TOC's allow for a forgotten season tickets once or twice a year to uphold an appeal, unfortunately I can't find a quote for this with SE trains.

northstar23 wrote: »

I have no doubt some people on here will think I deserve the fine and probably a few years in prison on top because "rules are rules and I broke them" but surely common sense has to be exercised somewhere?

Unfortunately it is a public forum and everybody is allowed their opinion but I Agreed with you, that as a season ticket holder, common sense should hopefully prevail in this case.

northstar23

Many thanks for the advice.

yorkie2 - good point well made... it wouldn't be impossible for anyone to use my season ticket, however on the daily commute I make tickets are checked 9 times out of 10 by a real person rather than machine.

I submitted my appeal after chatting to a few of the regular station staff; they were surprised I was even given a penalty considering I was able to show the ticket. When I mentioned the name of the Issuing Officer they said he was a grade A **** and would have fined me whatever I'd said or done.

livingthedream - I put a copy of the season ticket in with the appeal, but having already demonstated the ticket whilst getting the fine it just seems like the whole situation is a waste of everyone's time.

Livingthedream

northstar23 wrote: »

When I mentioned the name of the Issuing Officer they said he was a grade A **** and would have fined me whatever I'd said or done.

Right, let me start by apologising now to all the hard working railway staff out there as I hate to use this term. But unfortunately the railway like other parts of industry has it's 'Jobsworths' and it looks like you have come across one.

northstar23 wrote: »

livingthedream - I put a copy of the season ticket in with the appeal, but having already demonstated the ticket whilst getting the fine it just seems like the whole situation is a waste of everyone's time.

Hopefully it's not a waste of your time as it will save you £20 good luck with your appeal.

Stigy

As has been said, you have nothing to lose by appealing the decision and contrary to popular belief, some Penalty Fare appeals ARE won, even if Southeastern Trains do sort of own the Independent Penalty Fares Appeals Service!

You did commit an offence by boarding a train without your ticket under National Railway Byelaw 18(2), however, I'd like to have thought discretion would be exercised in this instance, given that your ticket was handed over minutes after having arrived at the station of destination! Could argue that the discretion IS the Penalty Fare Notice, as the (non?)discretionary action used a lot of the time is to report the matter for consideration of prosecution.

As Yorkie has said, it is not a fine. Only a Court can fine you, and that would be as a result of a successful prosecution by Southeastern Trains.

The thing NOT to do is ignore the matter if an appeal is unsucessful, as this will almost certainly see the Penalty Fare Notice eventually cancelled, and a court summons issued. I'm sure you wouldn't do tghat anyway!

Jeff_Bridges_hair

I agreee with others about appealing as you'll more then likely get some success as you have got a season.

1 question though - what time do you set off from Canterbury West and where do you end up? AFAIK the gates are normally in operation from around 6am there....

northstar23

Jeff Bridges - I usually get either the 0600, 0620 or 0634 out of Canterbury... they seem to staff the gates for the first two but then open them after the High Speed goes. I then go to Ashford where the gates weren't working either. Normally my ticket gets checked at least twice a day but on this occasion it wasn't until I got back to Canterbury in the evening.

Stigy - My partner was actually waiting at the barrier when I got off the train... the Penalty Fare guy just wouldn't let me through the door to talk to her despite my explanation

newfoundglory

Oh, the irony of the INDEPENDENT appeals service - funded by the train operators themselves - the ones who have bled the rail network dry of all the money :rotfl:

Its rubbish, but unfortunately you don't have a great deal of choice.

Its all about making more profit for the greedy train operator, but i'm sure you already understand that.

Livingthedream

newfoundglory wrote: »

....Irrelevant rant....

How does your rant help the OP? if you had read all the posts above you would have seen that even the 'railway employees' have explained that there's a very good chance the appeal will be upheld. If were out to get the OP wouldn't we just have said pay the £20 and don't do it again :cool:

newfoundglory

Surely I can't be the only poster on here which finds this behaviour despicable of a train operator?

So let me understand this right, you are advising the OP to:

1. Appeal to an organisation which isn't actually independent (although strangely feels the need to claim it is)
2. If the appeal fails, not to ignore it, but then pay up (presumably and possibly more than £20 at this point, to avoid possible prosecution under the byelaws)

OP - what you probably don't realise is that you have been issued a civil penalty - which i'm going to call a fine, because it will annoy the people who work on the railways :rotfl:

A penalty fare would appear to be a fine in everything but its name. Joe public calls it a fine. The train companies don't like that (its obviously quite important to them, not like anyone else gives a damn)

You are under no legal obligation to pay the £20 fine (or larger amounts), and if the train operator took you to the county court to try and recover that money from you - they would lose their case. The reason being, the fine is unenforceable. So they aren't going to do that. And, of course more importantly, the train company wouldn't make any money from it!

The problem you have is they may or may not prosecute you using the bylaws in the magistrates court - and if you don't know what you are doing you will lose. This is a strict liability offence, so your defences would probably be limited to either:

1. You were given permission to travel without a valid ticket by an authorised person.
2. There were no ticketing facilities available when you started your journey (a common occurrence at a central London station I know of, depending on the type of ticket you are after - some aren't available at machines)
3. You didn't commit the offence claimed (a possibility depending on what offence you are claimed to have committed)

You can be as creative as you like, within reason. Calling witnesses, seeking to get the case dismissed etc.

Unfortunately, for most people in this situation the easiest thing will be to just cough up the £20