Southeastern Penalty Fare

Jeff_Bridges_hair

newfoundglory wrote: »

A penalty fare would appear to be a fine in everything but its name. Joe public calls it a fine. The train companies don't like that (its obviously quite important to them, not like anyone else gives a damn)

You are under no legal obligation to pay the £20 fine (or larger amounts), and if the train operator took you to the county court to try and recover that money from you - they would lose their case. The reason being, the fine is unenforceable. So they aren't going to do that. And, of course more importantly, the train company wouldn't make any money from it!

And this is why people should actually listen to those in the know rather than ill-informed warblings from people who have an axe to grind.

It is not a fine. It is a penalty fare and can be greater then £20 in fact TWICE the single fare for your journey - which ever is the greater.

They may lose in this instance as the OP did have a ticket albeit left at home but then with the appeal they would take this on board and waiver the PF.

In other circumstances they WOULD most certainly take you to court for not having a ticket and they probably WOULD win.

newfoundglory

JBH, you dont seem to have quite grasped my logic. A penalty fare is a civil debt, and must be recovered through county courts. The train operator should claim the cost of the ticket, which conveniently has already been paid (OP does not owe any money)

I fail to see what point you are trying to make, and not sure I understand what you are talking about.

Humphrey10

See National Rail Conditions of Carriage section 35 - they might refund you?

Jeff_Bridges_hair

newfoundglory wrote: »

JBH, you dont seem to have quite grasped my logic. A penalty fare is a civil debt, and must be recovered through county courts. The train operator should claim the cost of the ticket, which conveniently has already been paid (OP does not owe any money)

I fail to see what point you are trying to make, and not sure I understand what you are talking about.

Yes its a civil debt - but one that can quite easily be transformed into a criminal record should they so wish to prosecute under the relevant bylaw.

Stigy

Jeff_Bridges_hair wrote: »

Yes its a civil debt - but one that can quite easily be transformed into a criminal record should they so wish to prosecute under the relevant bylaw.

Absolutely! And they will too, as TOCs don't do County Courts. The Byelaw had been breached, therefore the PF was legitimate. It would have been nice to have seen some discretion, but unfortunately, a lack of discretion doesn't make the notice illegally issued.

If it went to court, the compensation would be the standard single fare owed to the TOC, not the £20 Penalty Fare. Of course, there needn't been any fare avoided in order to proceed to court, as only a few byelaws relate to ticketing anyway!

Stigy

newfoundglory wrote: »

You can be as creative as you like, within reason. Calling witnesses, seeking to get the case dismissed etc

There's a fine line between creative thinking and perjury....

To the OP, It's best to listen to people who actually know what they're talking about.

newfoundglory

Jeff_Bridges_hair wrote: »

Yes its a civil debt - but one that can quite easily be transformed into a criminal record should they so wish to prosecute under the relevant bylaw.

But isn't this what I just explained in my post above?

And the fare has already been paid, as OP had a ticket which could have only been used by him - no money can be claimed for this, as no money is owed.

And I did not tell anyone to lie, Stigy. You know as I do that with strict liability cases the train operators use the cheapest and least resourceful counsels - so things can become expensive and not worthwhile very quickly, when obstacles are encountered. You also know they can't always provide the witnesses to secure a prosecution.

Someone on here has to balance out bad or incomplete advice with what the actual real world options are... Also, paying a fine doesn't guarantee you won't be prosecuted either.

Would it not be easier and quicker to just ask the paying public to bend over and take it up the backside? :rotfl:

Stigy

newfoundglory wrote: »

Also, paying a fine doesn't guarantee you won't be prosecuted either.

You've lost me there...Paying the PF does mean they wont be prosecuted. You implied that you could worm your way out of it by being ecconomical with the truth...Maybe I read it wrong.

There doesn't have to be a loss to the company for them to take someone to court. In this case however, they would use the standard single fare for the journey as the compensation claim. Saying nobody else could have used the ticket is irrelevant.

northstar23

Thanks to everyone for their replies and comments.

I think if my appeal doesn't work (although looking at the guidelines issued by other train companies I think it might) I will just pay the £20 and be done with it. It will be mighty tempting in future to redress the financial penalty with a few evaded fares though if the opportuinity comes up. Not sure that two wrongs make a right in that respect though.

I'm aware its a strict liability offence and regardless of any defence I committed it... but as I made no moral attempt to cheat southeastern of any revenue I feel a bit aggrieved. Had I realised a few minutes earlier I could have got off the train at a country station a few miles out of the city and cycled home, then no-one would have been any the wiser.

Spoke to some of the staff again at Canterbury yesterday whilst waiting for the train.... they said that even if I'd been mugged on the train and lost my ticket and got my face smashed in to boot the guy would still have given me a fine as he gets a real kick out of issuing them, no matter what the defence. There are some lovely people working for the railways

newfoundglory

Stigy wrote: »

You've lost me there...Paying the PF does mean they wont be prosecuted. You implied that you could worm your way out of it by being ecconomical with the truth...Maybe I read it wrong.

Providing its within the legal time limits, technically you could still be prosecuted (although any "penalty" paid would have to be refunded). As unlikely as this might be - its still possible. I have wondered how this might work in practice, seeing as getting money out of a train operator is like getting blood from stone.

I can understand why you say a claim for the single fare would be made, but the fare had indeed already been previously paid - so no loss has occurred. If the court accepted that the train operator had already been paid for the journey, I can't see why they would be an awarded the single fare.

Until such time as the railways come under the direct control of the paying public and byelaw offences are decriminalised, this national scandal will unfortunately continue.