Used car DPF problem

samba

Bought a 2008 Focus 1.6tdci recently, and within days it came up with a DPF blocked message.

Took it to the dealer, who put some additive in and cleared the diagnostic messages. Car seemed to be ok after that until last week, when it began hesitating alot, and there was lots of lag when accelerating. I went back to the dealer who diagnosed a stuck egr valve, which he has now replaced. Unfortunately, before I could take it to him to have the work done, the DPF message came back and it went into limp mode. The dealer said he would top up the Eolys fluid and get it reset at a Ford garage.

Car was due to be returned over the weekend, but I am still waiting for it. When I call, he says the egr is done, but they are having problems clearing the DPF fault because the filter is blocked. Currently they are trying to vacuum it out or something.

I checked with ford who told me the DPF should be replaced at 75,000 miles, so I contacted the Ford dealer who did that service, and they said it wasn't done because the owner (fleet company) didn't want to pay. So the supposed full service history is worthless, as is the used car warranty that I got with the car, as about the only worthwhile thing that covers is the turbo, and if that goes they will just say hard luck but the service schedule wasn't followed.

My impression at the moment is the dealer is trying to postpone the inevitable - the dpf needs replacing, but he doesn't want to pay and would rather bodge it long enough that he can wash his hands of it and let me pay for a new filter at some point down the line.

My question is, if I can show that the filter was blocked from the moment I bought the car (the light came on within 3 days taking possession of the car, and I have an email conversation regarding that in my inbox) then can I just let him mess around now, and when the filter starts playing up again (in say 6 months), have it replaced and send him the invoice?

bengalknights

It might be worth arguing the fact that it was sold with a "full service" history which wasnt true and that they should pay the bill.

daveyjp

Or even better drive it back to them, get your cash back for misrepresentation and buy a petrol instead.

Strider590

If anyone every questions my logic when I say that Petrol cars are better when your buying a 3 year+ old car, im going to direct them to this thread......

cardinalbiggles

Strider590 wrote: »

If anyone every questions my logic when I say that Petrol cars are better when your buying a 3 year+ old car, im going to direct them to this thread......

That's right because nobody has problems with petrol cars....

Delivery_Driver

He's got a point, if you don't do the miles to justify it then a petrol is a more sensible buy as they are generally cheaper to maintain and fix.

samba

When I made the thread I knew it would get sidetracked onto the benefits of dpfs

Also I don't think I'd get anywhere arguing about the full service history, or lack of. It has all the stamps at the required intervals, and the proper service schedule has been followed - it's just the optional stuff that hasn't been done such as replacing the dpf at 75,000 because Ford recommend it. The lesson here (for me) is that fleet companies will only do the minimum required to keep the car running for the 3 years or so they have the car - what happens beyond that is not their concern. On the other hand, unless you had had dpf-related problems, then as a private owner wouldn't you wait until the dpf was knackered before replacing it? Why spend £1000 if you don't need to?

I don't know if the sticky egr valve has caused the dpf to become blocked, or the egr valve became clogged up because the dpf is knackered, or whether they are both symptoms of another as yet undiagnosed fault. Perhaps the eolys fluid wasn't topped up at the last service, or the previous owner has been filling up a tenner at a time and used it all up.

To be fair to the dealer, he is taking responsibility for the problems and is having the work done at his own expense even though it is not covered by the warranty. My concern is that his attempts at cleaning the dpf will be at best a short-term solution. If that turns out to be the case, will I still be able to hold him liable for replacing the dpf in 6 months time?

captainawsome

What mileage is the car at now? Is it much over the 75000 recommended interval? Clearing the dpf by means of regeneration is fine if the filter is blocked prematurely by short journeys around town etc, but if the filter is blocked because its at the end of its serviceable life the seller may soon realise he's pi$$ing into the wind trying to clear it and replacing the dpf is inevitable. Getting him to pay may not be so straight forward so good luck.

samba

captainawsome wrote: »

the seller may soon realise he's pi$$ing into the wind trying to clear it

I think I'll suggest that to him - it's about as good a way of cleaning the filter as the method he is using.:D

Mileage is 100,000 so well over the recommended 75,000.

I did notice in the log book that the car did around 30,000 miles per year for 3 years then around 5000 miles in the last year.

GolfBravo

I'm afraid you'll need a new/refurb DPF filter very soon. The failure was most likely caused by the faulty EGR.

My 2 cents worth:
- your Ford tdci uses the excellent Peugeot/Citroen 1.6 DLD416 engine (also used by Peugeot, Citroen, Volvo, BMW and Mazda). It comes with the second generation of DPF system that is usually good for over 120K miles before the DPF filter needs replacing. The first generation required new filter around 70-80K miles mark. So your car requiring a new filter at 75K is, let's say, unusual.
- Ford only recommends changing it at 75K simply to top up their coffers, no replacement really necessary until it is blocked and the engine ECU generates the "DPF filter blocked" message. The ECU compares exhaust pressures before and after the filter to work out whether it simply requires automatic regeneration or whether it is blocked
- IMHO compared to General Motors and Volkswagen/Audi/Skoda/Seat systems, the second generation Peugeot/Citroen DPF is ultra reliable
- the second generation DPF system is smart enough to figure out how much diesel (approximately) you put in and adds just enough Eolys serum to the fuel tank. Whether you put in £10 or £50 worth of diesel shouldn't matter (it did matter with the first generation, but that was using even a different Eolys type)
- normally before the DPF filter gets blocked there should be messages coming up, either advising you to low Eolys fluid level (that needs to be topped up then, and the ECU Eolys counter reset), or advising you of a possibility of DPF blockage due to engine not being revved up much (then you need to take the car for a spin so that regeneration can take place)
- you can clean the DPF filter DIY (using a Karcher hot water pressure hose), but that is only a temporary solution as it doesn't clean the filter 100% and it then clogs up within a few months.
- when you take your car to a Ford dealer they replace the filter with either a brand new or a refurbished one. Then they send it off to Ford UK to get their £192 (approx) back, and Ford UK then sends it to a Peugeot/Citroen subsidiary in France for a thorough clean using all sorts of nasty acids. They then test it and resell it.
- a new DPF filter replacement should not end up costing you £1000. A brand new Peugeot/Citroen filter for that particular engine cost £425 including VAT, plus £192 surcharge, so Ford's price should be similar. The dealership gets the surcharge back from Ford UK when they return the old unit.
- there are numerous Ebay sellers selling refurb (not sure whether genuine) DPF filters for around £250-£350 mark, but I don't know how good they are. Any tyre/exhaust place should be able to replace it for you in under 1 hour - you simply remove the catalitic converter/DPF unit, separate the two, use new exhaust ring kit (comes with the DPF filter), and attach the new DPF with a fixing clamp. No rocket science there, similar to item 12 on the diagram below (number 11 is the cat converter), the Ford part would be a slightly different shape though.

Anyway, a question still remains why your car needs a new DPF so soon. There are only a few ways in which you can prematurely kill a DPF:
- ignoring the "risk of DPF blockage" message and driving around at low speed for hours
- wrong Eloys fluid used when topping up
- low quality engine oil used/missed oil intervals/engine using oil: DPF filters really don't like any burned engine oil coming though the exhaust, the regeneration process can't remove it from the filter. Best to use Total Quartz Ineo oil (around £20 for 5 litres on Ebay) designed for DPF engines.
- faulty MAF sensor causes over-fuelling and clogging up DPF
- and, faulty EGR! It contaminates the inlet with all sorts of nasty residues which then end up in the DPF filter, slowly killing it.

Your Ford dealer's service/mechanics handbook (that they subscribe to from Ford) will almost definitely link the DPF failure cause to the faulty EGR. Even the faulty EGR section will advise them of likely premature DPF failure. So keep trying and maybe they will replace it for you either free of charge (used car warranty?) or at a heavily discounted price.

Good luck!

PS
Just noticed your new post about the 100K mileage. Still worth a try though and ask them to replace it free of charge. Friend's 2005 Citroen C4 1.6 diesel is at almost 130K miles, still good filter, still original Eolys (never topped up).

Trebor16

Strider590 wrote: »

If anyone every questions my logic when I say that Petrol cars are better when your buying a 3 year+ old car, im going to direct them to this thread......

And if anyone needs examples of how not to drive I will direct them to your videos on You tube as fine examples, brilliantly demonstrated by you, of how not to do it:D