Penalty fare on FGW

mwian

Hi.

I need a bit of advice.

I went from one town to another on the train. I purchased an adult and a child ticket (return). I used a friends and family rail card and got the discount. I got the tickets and got on the train... no problem there.

I got to my destination, I did what I had to and got on the train to come back. A ticket inspector came round. I pulled 3 of the 4 tickets out. The 2 child tickets and the adult ticket going to my destination. I had lost the adult return ticket.... so the inspector gave me a penalty fare ticket of £20.

I went to the lady who sold me the tickets. She could recall selling me the tickets. She could not reprint the ticket (apparently) and she felt that I was able to show that I had purchased a valid ticket because I had the other 3 tickets. Her advice was that I should appeal (which I did).

I sent a letter to the appeal people and the IPFAS people sent a reply back saying that if I could not produce a valid ticket, I have to pay a penalty fare.

I had unknowingly lost the ticket and I only discovered that I had lost the ticket after I got on the train.

My argument is that I can show that I had a valid ticket before I boarded the train at the start and I am able to show that if I had not lost one of the tickets, I would have been able to produce the ticket.

To date, I have not paid the penalty fare, for two reasons. I can't afford to loose the £20 (on a very tight budget) and secondly out of principal, I disagree with paying £20 for the privilege of loosing a ticket. I know that the people at the train station can confirm that I purchased a ticket before I boarded the train.

In essence, I did pay for the ticket and there is proof enough to show that I did. I was not a fare dodger.

Is there anyone who might have advice for me?

In addition, if I don't pay the £20, what can the train people do?

Thanks.

HappyMJ

They could take you to court to enforce the £20 penalty fare which would be more than £20 if it went to court and you were found to be travelling without a valid ticket and the judge agreed. Whether that happens or not is a gamble you can take if you choose.

mwian

Thanks for that reply. If I have to go to court, they may have to pay for me to get there as affordability will be questionable.

Is it worth appealing the IPFAS decision, can I ask them to review it? I guess I can, but is it a worth while process and if I did ask for a review, what would the next logical step be?

give_them_FA

I suggest you go back to the sympathetic paerson who sold you the tickets and see if you can get a written confirmation of what she said, long shot maybe.

As it's plain you must have had the ticket you could just try sitting tight, often people can't be bothered to go through loads of paperwork for a paltry sum. But I don't know that, never having been in that situation. Why didn't you just give a false name and address, lol? Did I say that.:rotfl::rotfl::rotfl:

vax2002

the exploration is what is a "valid ticket"

Coupon-mad

mwian wrote: »

Thanks for that reply. If I have to go to court, they may have to pay for me to get there as affordability will be questionable.

Is it worth appealing the IPFAS decision, can I ask them to review it? I guess I can, but is it a worth while process and if I did ask for a review, what would the next logical step be?

You may as well try appealing - did you ever find the missing ticket? If not then maybe enclose a letter from the lady who sold them to you, or at least state her name and the station.

I take it you did have a child with you?

HO87

The issue is - as I'm sure Stigy will confirm - that undoubtedly the offence for which the penalty fare has been issued for was failing to produce your ticket on request, not for having avoided payment. By all means appeal - with evidence showing the payment (and thus the tickets you purchased) - but I suspect you may be wasting your time. Best of luck though.

Livingthedream

mwian wrote: »

In addition, if I don't pay the £20, what can the train people do?

Cancellation of the Penalty Fare and prosecution via byelaw 18 'Failure to show a valid ticket' which is a strict liability offence.
The likelyhood of the Train Company taking this action is quite high as it's a nice little money earner.

mwian wrote: »

Thanks for that reply. If I have to go to court, they may have to pay for me to get there as affordability will be questionable.

As the defendant you should be able to get it transferred to your local court.

mwian wrote: »

Is it worth appealing the IPFAS decision, can I ask them to review it?

IPFAS's decision will be final, but you can appeal to a higher level, write a letter to the address below with all the evidence/reasons why your appeal should be upheld.

Passenger Focus
FREEPOST (RRRE-ETTC-LEET)
PO BOX 4257
Manchester
M60 3AR

give_them_FA wrote: »

I suggest you go back to the sympathetic paerson who sold you the tickets and see if you can get a written confirmation of what she said, long shot maybe.

You'll have nothing to lose in trying this, also if you paid for the tickets by credit/debit card then get a printout of the transaction from the bank and enclose that. Also enclose photocopies of the other tickets that you had that day.

give_them_FA wrote: »

As it's plain you must have had the ticket you could just try sitting tight, often people can't be bothered to go through loads of paperwork for a paltry sum.

Unfortunately all those £20 add up to a nice little earner.

give_them_FA wrote: »

Why didn't you just give a false name and address, lol? Did I say that.:rotfl::rotfl::rotfl:

:eek:

Coupon-mad

give_them_FA wrote: »

Why didn't you just give a false name and address, lol? Did I say that.:rotfl::rotfl::rotfl:

Missed that bit! Well said sir! :rotfl:

mwian

Thank you everyone for your replies and helpful advice.

The person who got the penalty fare was my girlfriend and she had a child with her. The ticket inspector asked her for her address and because she couldn't prove that she lived there, he phones someone who checked. The previous tenant's name was still registered to the address, so the ticket inspector got her to phone me and he asked me to confirm the address.... which I did, because I didn't know what he had and didn't have and I didn't want to cause any hassle for her.

I sent copies of the 3 tickets we had to the IPFAS but their focus seems to be on the point that a valid ticked could not be provided rather than not paid for a ticket. The ticket inspector had to have a policeman standing next to him and another nearby because the other passengers were getting a bit loud and telling him that my girlfriend had obviously purchased a ticket and that he was being unfair. I guess that the inspector was determined to inpose the penalty because he had 2 policemen close.

We know the lady that sold us the ticket quiet well, so I may just ask her if she would write a letter for us. I don't really want to get her into trouble and she is the timid sort...so I am not to optimistic there.

The lost ticket was lost at the destination somewhere. It has not been found.



If I write a letter to

Passenger Focus
FREEPOST (RRRE-ETTC-LEET)
PO BOX 4257
Manchester
M60 3AR

do I have to copy the letter to the IPFAS? I expect they will want to be chasing their £20 at some point, but I am confident that if I can show that I am still appealing, they will have to be seen to being fair and not expect me to pay more than £20... which leaves me paying £20 and them everything else....potentially.


I think the ticket was purchased using cash, but I will check the bank statement. Thanks for that tip.

I am not against paying the £20 penalty if I didn't purchase a ticket. I am against paying the penalty when I can produce proof that I had the tickets. I see that season ticket holders don't have to pay the penalty if they fail to show their ticket because they can get their season ticket reprinted (apparently). I am resistant to paying the £20 out of principal, because a valid ticket had been purchased before the trip and 3 of the 4 tickets could be provided as proof to the inspector.


Thanks again for all the replies.

mwian

To update this post and to thank all the people who have contributed,

FGW sent a few threatening letters, with each letter suggesting that I pay £20 more. The latest letter was a statement of facts, where the facts were incorrect and the option to pay £60 to settle "out of court".

I contacted Passenger Focus (as advised on here) and gave them the details.
Long story short. FGW have agreed to waver the £20 penalty.

There are 2 things which smack me. The sheer arrogance of FGW claiming that their penalty fare was applied using the correct procedure, even though it's clearly obvious that they are not entirely right and that it took the involvement of Passenger Focus to get FGW to see common sense rather than their own staff to accept that their actions were not the best they could have been.

In addition, the amount of time I have spent writing to FGW and Passenger Focus and the time they have spent on this case by far exceeds £20. To me it was the principal of paying a penalty that was unfair, rather than the actual cost.

Unfortunately, FGW are the only option of train where I live, so I can't really consider not using their service. Even if I used the busses, it wouldn't make much difference because the busses are part of the First group. I may put my money where my mouth is and stump up the money to put a car on the road (which costs more than the trains and busses) but I am avoiding paying money to a company that rendered me a dis-service.....decisions, decisions.

In any event, thanks again for the advice given on here and hopefully my "happy ending" inspires more people to stand up for their principals.