Should I buy a property that has no building regulations for the loft conversion?

paddy's_mum

I believe that after four years, such an alteration is immune from enforcement action ie they can't make you knock it down and apply for the correct permissions.

However, becoming immune doesn't make a home-made loft conversion safe ... collapsing ceilings, bowing walls, badly anchored roof timbers, poor electrical works, dangerous gas installations, deadly-in-a-fire insulation materials, insufficient means of escape .... charred kiddies, anyone?

G_M

paddy's_mum wrote: »

I believe that after four years, such an alteration is immune from enforcement action ie they can't make you knock it down and apply for the correct permissions.

However, becoming immune doesn't make a home-made loft conversion safe ... collapsing ceilings, bowing walls, badly anchored roof timbers, poor electrical works, dangerous gas installations, deadly-in-a-fire insulation materials, insufficient means of escape .... charred kiddies, anyone?

Thanks P'sM!

Everyone seems hung up on possible enforcement by the council; by the cost of complying; by indemnity insurance;

No one mentions the risk.... to life!

Builders who self-build, and then ignore/fail to get Building Regs sign-off have nearly always cut corners. Otherwise why not get the paperwork? the inspection/paperwork is not expensiv in the scale of things, it is complying with the standards required that adds cost.

So - if the attic flooring was not strengthened properly to take the extra weight of furniture/people (for which attics are not designed) not only could someone fall through (or have a bed fall though onto them while in the bath below), but your insurance would not pay out either as the insurer would wash their hands!

If Jo Bloggs built a house from scratch, without planning permission, without Building Regs, and without an architect/builder's guarantee (NHBC etc) you would run a mile.

Why is this different?

Catblue

G_M wrote: »

Thanks P'sM!

Everyone seems hung up on possible enforcement by the council; by the cost of complying; by indemnity insurance;

No one mentions the risk.... to life!

Builders who self-build, and then ignore/fail to get Building Regs sign-off have nearly always cut corners. Otherwise why not get the paperwork? the inspection/paperwork is not expensiv in the scale of things, it is complying with the standards required that adds cost.

So - if the attic flooring was not strengthened properly to take the extra weight of furniture/people (for which attics are not designed) not only could someone fall through (or have a bed fall though onto them while in the bath below), but your insurance would not pay out either as the insurer would wash their hands!

If Jo Bloggs built a house from scratch, without planning permission, without Building Regs, and without an architect/builder's guarantee (NHBC etc) you would run a mile.

Why is this different?

Totally agree. Think about this rationally. If the vendors really have done a great job then it would cost a few hundred quid to get Building Regs sign-off and they are then free to market their house as a 5 bed rather than a 3 bed. A 5-bed house would normally increase the value of the house by a good few 10Ks, you would think.

So why are they not getting the relatively inexpensive and quick sign-off that would enable them to chuck another, say, 40K onto the asking price?

Because they KNOW FULL WELL that the "conversion" has not been done properly and that it will not get signed off without a huge amount of money spent on it. And now they don't want you to get a builder in to have a look since their own builder has said that it is structurally sound? Yeah, right. Very large alarm bells should be ringing. If they won't allow you to take a builder round then is seems obvious that they really are hiding something.

And if they have done this, what else have they bodged in the house?

If you still want to go ahead then you need to tell the agent that you taking a builder around is non-negotiable otherwise you will be pulling out of the sale.

Yorkie1

I agree entirely with P's Mum and G_M's comments.

However, with regards to the suggestion that a builder will be able to tell by looking at it whether it does in fact meet regulations, this is highly unlikely to be the case. Even a structural engineer would need to expose surfaces to see what lies beneath e.g. walls to check insulation, floors to check joists.

vec001

Thank you for all your responses. I Really appreciate it.

lots to think about......

catblue the vendor has always told me that i can take my own builder / structural engineer round to look at it myself if I am worried. As she says, she has already had a builder round to look at it and they said it was structually sound. The vendor is selling the house on behalf of her dad who has now died. She has however offered to pay for an indemity policy.

The house was originally advertised as a 5 bed and yes the offer fell through due to it not having building regs and the price has dropped by 40k. I am now buying it as a 3 bed with attic rooms. My mortagage has been agreed, as the valuer confirmed the value as the purchase price

bob q - The attic rooms do have dormer windows and they were built in 1990s by the vendors builder father. It has a staircase leading up to two rooms and a shower room. The lower ceilings have been dropped to create headspace. Would they have needed planning permission for this in the 1990s? Also if this was done over 20 years ago and it was causing structual damage on the house - wouldnt this have come up in my survey? dipping roof / bowing walls etc? The problem is I cant contact the council due to the offer of the indemity policy. Ive also heard that the council dont keep records as far back as that???

again any information would be appreciated as this is driving me crazy!

thanks

Thrugelmir

vec001 wrote: »

again any information would be appreciated as this is driving me crazy!

Either spend the money to have the work checked over or walk away.

Reduce your offer to cover the expense.

JQ.

Don't forget the Indemnity Policy is to cover your costs if the Council force you to get the conversion regulated. What it doesn't do is guarantee that your house won't fall down because the works were completed to a poor standard. Just because the owner was a builder does not mean they were a competent one.

I would be wanting a full structural survey, by a qualified structural engineer. When calculating the load capacities of structural beams builders employ Structural Engineers, therefore you should too.

olly300

vec001 wrote: »

The attic rooms do have dormer windows and they were built in 1990s by the vendors builder father.

As already stated get a structural engineer out.

Do this before worrying about anything else or spending money on anything else.

My alarm bells started ringing when you mentioned the vendor's father was the actual builder. A builder would know the permissions he needed to get and what regulations he need to comply with before, during and after the project.

Lady_leisure

Ive been doing a lot of research on this subject as I'm in similar situation. We are completing on a property next week(exchanged already) its a bungalow built around early 1970s that has had a lofT conversion at some point. It looks to have been done in the 70s and of course there were no building regs then. It's actually not too bad ie: head height ok, some insulation etc. it's 2 rooms and central staircase with small landing and doors left and right to each room. There's a velux in one room that would have to be changed to an escape window and a gable end window in the other that opens fully up. The bungalow interior walls are all supporting solid walls. The main problem is the staircase wouldn't comply as its very steep open tread with ugly 70s iron fretwork balustrade. The survey(basic) questioned the stairs which are obvious and the floor strength and suggested getting building control in to check but this would open a can of worms! The conversion is 40 years old and we want to update the whole house including a new staircase but we can never get a BCO to sign it off as it would question the whole conversion.
The house has been inherited and the vendor has taken out an indemnity policy so I realise I can never get this official unless we are willing to bring it up to today's regs which we can't afford. It was marketed as 4 beds although I never thought it was anything other than a 2 bed 2 attic rooms. We paid asking price as this is an incredibly sort after house and I know the value is ok as 2 bed looking at other property sales in area.
For us it's a risk we are prepared to take, there are thousands of houses that don't have building regs it's just become a an obsession lately with solicitors. How can a BCO enforce you to make it comply when it didn't have to 30-40 years ago?

go_cat

Lady_leisure wrote: »

Ive been doing a lot of research on this subject as I'm in similar situation. We are completing on a property next week(exchanged already) its a bungalow built around early 1970s that has had a lofT conversion at some point. It looks to have been done in the 70s and of course there were no building regs then. It's actually not too bad ie: head height ok, some insulation etc. it's 2 rooms and central staircase with small landing and doors left and right to each room. There's a velux in one room that would have to be changed to an escape window and a gable end window in the other that opens fully up. The bungalow interior walls are all supporting solid walls. The main problem is the staircase wouldn't comply as its very steep open tread with ugly 70s iron fretwork balustrade. The survey(basic) questioned the stairs which are obvious and the floor strength and suggested getting building control in to check but this would open a can of worms! The conversion is 40 years old and we want to update the whole house including a new staircase but we can never get a BCO to sign it off as it would question the whole conversion.
The house has been inherited and the vendor has taken out an indemnity policy so I realise I can never get this official unless we are willing to bring it up to today's regs which we can't afford. It was marketed as 4 beds although I never thought it was anything other than a 2 bed 2 attic rooms. We paid asking price as this is an incredibly sort after house and I know the value is ok as 2 bed looking at other property sales in area.
For us it's a risk we are prepared to take, there are thousands of houses that don't have building regs it's just become a an obsession lately with solicitors. How can a BCO enforce you to make it comply when it didn't have to 30-40 years ago?

As said before its not usually the issue with it falling down especially after this period of time. It's more wether it meets fire and safety regulations.

To me the fact you have exchanged before checking this is insane. Let's hope you never have to escape out of the window or don't fall down the dangerous staircase:eek: