CSA - Court and Liability Orders

maggied_2

Hello

It's been a while since I needed to post on here but could do with some advice.

I'm the NRPP, OH is NRP. 1 x 11yo DD.

NRP and PWC have been split up 8/9 years and in that time OH always paid CM - a little over the CSA calcs each month as we now know!

However...

A few months ago the bonkers cow came to our house and, amongst some other fairly undignified carrying on attacked my OH and then took her key and did £1K worth of damage to my car.

Knowing that OH would try to take the cost of the repairs from her CM she immediately went to the CSA. This wouldn't be a problem except that
1. She has lied about the number of nights DSD stays with us (5 nights a fortnight and 50% of the school holidays - total of 142 nights a year - she's told them 1 night a week! :mad:)

2. Because it doesn't work out as an exact number of nights per week, the CSA are insisting on rounding it down to 2 nights a week - meaning that there are 6/7 weeks a year where DSD is with us but OH has to pay CM.

We advised CSA at the start of January that she had lied about the number of nights and have sent them the court order outlining the number of nights DSD spends at each house.

When I last spoke to them they said they would be checking with PWC if that was true as we may not be keeping to them (a quick scan of the many many court visits would show them that in fact it was her deliberately breaking the order - a lot - but that's story for another day).

Anyway, today we have received a summons to court for March for the (incorrect) outstanding amount with a view to granting a Liability Order.

I've just called as I am authorised to speak to them but they wouldn't speak to me as apparently the authorisation only lasts for one call....funny as I've spoken to them twice and last time they discussed all the details of the case with me.

OH is perfectly happy to pay (although it bl00dy well will be at the new rate...£40 a month less than he was giving her in the prviate arrangement) but not at the amount they are demanding.

What's the best way to handle things from here? OH is self employed by the way if that makes any difference.

Cheers
M x

maggied_2

Another quick question - would the liability order affect our credit rating? I know it seems like a small thing but we're looking to remortgage this year. If it does then we're over a barrel

kevin137

Welcome to the world of CSA HELL

I don't know how much advice i can give apart from the following...

Make sure EVERYTHING you do is in writing in regards to the CSA, and anything you do write to them, send recorded delivery.

Complain formally in writing about EVERYTHING you disagree with, and i do mean everything, and again send recorded delivery.

If the CSA do not take the contact order as proof of dates, apply for a court date, and call them as a witness as to the PWC breaching the court order, a long shot, but would be fun to do... Makes both the CSA look stupid, and causes the PWC no end of grief with the court.

The liability order, well.... They will tell you that this is a formality, and that you DO NOT NEED TO ATTEND, make sure that you respond to them by saying, oh ok, and leave it at that... BUT DEFINITELY TURN UP...!!! Raise concerns that you have tried to tlk to the CSA regarding the incorrect assessments, that the CSA has over ruled a court order that proves the amount of contact proving the assessment to be incorrect, and push this point as much as you can, the court will not like t that the CSA can take a court order and say, we don't believe that is the contact you have... And make sure you have all your correspondence filed, and copied at least 3 times so you can supply it to the magistrates should they wish to see it all..

Will it effect your credit rating, not sure how it works, but it is a judgement of sorts, and means they can then seek an attachment to property, vehicles, remove driving license passport funds from bank accounts etc... So you need to avoid it at all costs...!

Anything else just ask... I'll try to help...

romanempire

maggied wrote: »

A few months ago the bonkers cow came to our house and, amongst some other fairly undignified carrying on attacked my OH and then took her key and did £1K worth of damage to my car.

Knowing that OH would try to take the cost of the repairs from her CM she immediately went to the CSA.

How many months ago? Given most people experience of the CSA I'm very surprised its progressed to a liability order so quickly (unless your OH has been doing the ostrich thing ).

Get your OH file from CSA. Info in a sticky at top of forum. This will give you ammunition to fight them especially if they've made mistakes.

Hope you reported her to the police for the vandalism on your car.

Also you need to stop using the phone. Deal with them in writing ONLY, sent recorded delivery. Create a paper trail to protect yourself. They are supposed to transcribe any phone conversations they have with you to an on-screen 'notepad' but, given the wide variability of CSA staff, how much would you like to bet all your dealings with them get recorded accurately???

Self-employed is good. Sole trader or ltd company?

R.

PreludeForTimeFeelers

maggied wrote: »

Hello

It's been a while since I needed to post on here but could do with some advice.

I'm the NRPP, OH is NRP. 1 x 11yo DD.

NRP and PWC have been split up 8/9 years and in that time OH always paid CM - a little over the CSA calcs each month as we now know!

However...

A few months ago the bonkers cow came to our house and, amongst some other fairly undignified carrying on attacked my OH and then took her key and did £1K worth of damage to my car.

Knowing that OH would try to take the cost of the repairs from her CM she immediately went to the CSA. This wouldn't be a problem except that
1. She has lied about the number of nights DSD stays with us (5 nights a fortnight and 50% of the school holidays - total of 142 nights a year - she's told them 1 night a week! :mad:)

2. Because it doesn't work out as an exact number of nights per week, the CSA are insisting on rounding it down to 2 nights a week - meaning that there are 6/7 weeks a year where DSD is with us but OH has to pay CM.

We advised CSA at the start of January that she had lied about the number of nights and have sent them the court order outlining the number of nights DSD spends at each house.

When I last spoke to them they said they would be checking with PWC if that was true as we may not be keeping to them (a quick scan of the many many court visits would show them that in fact it was her deliberately breaking the order - a lot - but that's story for another day).

Anyway, today we have received a summons to court for March for the (incorrect) outstanding amount with a view to granting a Liability Order.

I've just called as I am authorised to speak to them but they wouldn't speak to me as apparently the authorisation only lasts for one call....funny as I've spoken to them twice and last time they discussed all the details of the case with me.

OH is perfectly happy to pay (although it bl00dy well will be at the new rate...£40 a month less than he was giving her in the prviate arrangement) but not at the amount they are demanding.

What's the best way to handle things from here? OH is self employed by the way if that makes any difference.

Cheers
M x

What are the arrears? It seems very odd that they're at the liability order stage already.

Your partner needs to call them up and ask them to record on the system that you are his representative, ask them to enter this on the notes, and then in the future if you get any hassle with them tell them to read the notes from 23/2/12, or whatever date you call them.

The CSA use bands for shared care (overnight stays) - these are in bands of 52 nights per year, so band 1 is 52 - 103 nights, band 2 is 104 - 155 nights. If the child stays 142 nights per year then it is band 2, which is what the CSA have put you in from what you say.

maggied_2

Hi everyone

Thanks for the answers.

Replies in brief -

We did report the damage to my car but as we didn't actually see her do it there's nothing we can do. The one person who did see was DSD but we're not going to ask her to tell on her mum.

OH is sole trader.

He did do the ostrich bit, yes . For three months. I'm assuming that's why they've gone to court. The arrears are in the region of £400 as we have been making some payments.

CSA called back the other nights. She'd spoken to PWC who had at first stuck to her lie but eventually backed down! However, she will still get the extra money for the time OH didn't inform them of the correct number of nights.

We've had a re-assessment through today and they've made a few errors on it but do seem to be rounding the number of nights down.

I know from using these forums that they have a banding system - however that is not mentioned on a single piece of information they have sent to us and frankly I don't see how hard it is to calculate the number of nights over a year. As we're at the top of band 2 OH is basically being financially penalised for having his daughter to stay.

Has anyone had any luck arguing the toss on this one?

I still find it really shocking that they're willing to take the word of the PWC over that of a CO (by that I mean contact order, ot court order as I put previously). They did say that if she didn't agree then we would have had to provide evidence that DSD was here on the nights we said.

All said and done it actually suits us to go through the CSA....we'll be paying less than under the private arrangement and it gives the horrible cow one less reason to contact OH!

M x

eskimo26

maggied wrote: »

Hi everyone

Thanks for the answers.

Replies in brief -

OH is sole trader.

I think your husband can register as an LtD company then read upon how you can set it up to benefit you with regards to CSA payments. Of course he should pay i'm not suggesting he shirk and nor are you but if it was me i would set it up to pay the minimum until it pays off the damage on the car!

This thread might help but bear it mind it is from 2007.

http://groups.google.com/group/uk.business.accountancy/browse_thread/thread/1e2217a2a6983bc6/c0cef991e18946e8?#c0cef991e18946e8

another thread recommending ltd:
http://forums.contractoruk.com/accounting-legal/25503-best-go-self-employed-umbrella-csa-point-view.html

fannyanna

And what about reporting her to the police for attacking your OH?

Your a better person than me as if I were in your shoes that woman would be banned from coming near my house ever again!

Blob

Sounds all to familiar to me this, in my case I was attacked personally by the ex and needed medical attention! In the course of the attack I defended myself as you do, being a former Royal Marine and 6'3" I could have done real damage to her, I just picked her up and put her in a chair! Was claimed I through her across the room, to the police, when they talked to me they found out about my military career and decided that actually I had used the minim force necessary to defend myself, so did the judge in the Contact hearings as well!

If the CSA buffoons go for this LO then before the hearing, go to the Court and make an application on Form M245 an application for a Warrant of Suspension, tis will stop the LO dead in its tracks and any and all enforcement action as well. Effectively you then take all of the power from the CSA and place it in the hands of the Courts with regards to any arrears. The CSA will hate you for it, but life goes on.

maggied_2

She most certainly is banned from coming to our house ever again! There's been an even worse incident since (which would identify me immediately so won't go into it here).

We didn't press charges as we didn't think it would be worth it....when we reported it she was interviewed under caution and claimed OH had assaulted her instead. The police gave the impression that they didn't believe her but we didn't want to drag it out. She thrives off this kind of drama (I'm reminded of that saying about wrestling with a pig) and she finds no reaction far more infuriating.

I could write a hefty book on the crap she's pulled over the years...she's a genuine POS. Unfortunately she sees nothing wrong with dragging DSD into it all and consistently plays mind games in order to get her own way.

Re court - OH lost enough money taking time off work to go to the family courts so he's not losing another day for this.

maggied_2

Sorry for bumping my own thread...


Got a rather abusive call today from the CSA.


The last time I spoke to them they said they'd spoken to PWC and although she'd initially denied that OH had DSD more than 1 night a week she changed her mind she then accepted that we had DSD the nights we stated (142 nights per year).

They then sent us a letter with the 'new' calcs in which were incorrect. We wrote back pointing this out (which they don't appear to have received).

We got the call yesterday and the person I spoke to got very aggresive and said that we'd 'misled' them (ie we said that we would pay the arrears one they had recalculated correctly...which they have not done) and we were losing our shared care allowance.

I've made it very clear all along that we are happy to pay (OH has done so for 8 years) it will be at the correct amount.

What now?

Can they do this?

As I said further up there is a court hearing for an LO on the 23rd.

They seem to be prepared to believe the ex's lies even though we have a CO...what's the best course of action here? We have been making payments but not the amount the CSa want.