BBC One tonight: Poor America

Generali

Kennyboy66 wrote: »

Not really - birth rates in the 2 countries are very similar.

Where Australian stats would be dragged down would be Aboriginal peoples health and life expectancy.

The figures are dreadful almost as bad as parts of Glasgow!

Life expectancy in England is higher than the rest of the UK, so if Scotland becomes independent, we will all live longer. Hurray.

Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander men have a live expectancy at birth of 57 years!

Disgracefully, that is even worse than life expectancy at birth in the poorest parts of Glasgow I believe: for Glasgow East (the poor bit?) life expectancy at birth for a man is apparently 69 (link).

It's not just about substance abuse (although that has a large impact). There are quite a lot of Aboriginals that live a couple of days from fresh food meaning that it is easy to become reliant on low quality, high fat pre-packaged food that is easy to store.

Also, Indigenous Protected Areas tend to have low levels of medical care available and fruit, milk and vegetable prices are often double that of other 'white' (for want of a better word) rural towns with supplies patchy and often not very fresh. The provision of education is often poor or non-existent too and, given the last 200+ years of history, many Indigenous people are rather suspicious of the state: celebrating the national day on the day that white people first landed in Australia and started the systematic theft of their land is hardly a promising start!

IMO the best solution would be to start to train more Aboriginal people to be doctors, nurses and teachers and to stop paying higher levels of dole to Indigenous people that don't want to work. Encourage them to either work within the system or live a traditional life.

Don't treat them like feral dogs on the edge of the camp site being thrown the odd piece of rotten meat to keep them away from the stores.

I will now dismount from my high horse.

SailorSam

I was shocked at that political meeting to hear some of the audience shouting out that the sick who couldn't afford health care should be left to die and starve. And when they were talking to the young kids about what they ate at home, that 6yr old girl said then once ate a rat 'cos there was nothing else to eat.
Could things get that bad hear, it's often said some are only one payslip away from losing their homes, could we have tent cities here.

pqrdef

I reckon poverty !!!!!! is set to become the new property !!!!!!. Expect more documentaries like this.

There's clearly a demand for economic agony, considering the number of people who just can't wait for Greece to default.

VfM4meplse

SailorSam wrote: »

And when they were talking to the young kids about what they ate at home, that 6yr old girl said then once ate a rat 'cos there was nothing else to eat.

That is truly shocking. I'll have to watch this on catch-up.

lionelator

Generali wrote: »

Do you know of a country with this sort of system? I can think of a couple but it ain't the NHS.

No 'free' system of healthcare can deliver care efficiently as if everything is priced at zero there is no difference between spending hundreds of thousands on a treatment and spending tens of pounds on a different treatment, perhaps on a different patient.

A system that imposes some costs on patients will always be more efficient. The Aussie system is a particularly fine example although there are others I believe. The NHS is expensive and inefficient and can never be anything else.

Australians and British spend broadly the same amount overall on heath care, whether provided by the state, privately or via a charity (8.5% of GDP vs 8.4% of GDP - link) despite Australia facing great difficulties providing health cover to a part of her population because of their geographical spread.

The life expectancy at birth for an Aussie is 16 months higher than for a Briton; infant mortality rates are 16% higher in the UK than Aus; mortality 'amenable to health care' (that is deaths that could have been prevented by better treatment) are 47% higher in the UK than in Aus.

Rather than compare the UK's system to another failing one, it would be better to compare it to one that is succeeding!

There is no perfect system, if there was everyone would adopt it.
I would completely disagree with your statement about the NHS being expensive and inefficient and there never being a chance for it to be anything else.
Yes, the NHS will evaluate treatments and decide which ones to provide. Thats common sense. Those with the ability and income will purchase BUPA, for example, which allows a lot more flexibility in treatment options. Those that can't afford it are still covered by a brilliant all encompassing safety net. Ive lived in Melbourne, Toronto, Dubai, India, and now in the UK, and without a doubt, the UK system is the one Id find to be the best example for all encompassing care. Im pleased you are happy in Australia but would disagree that its health care system is ideal, having lived and worked there and having friends who work in the system as doctors at the moment.

Generali wrote: »

No difference to the patient.

The point is that the NHS basically doesn't charge except for prescriptions. From the patient's point of view, having ingrown toenails removed, pointlessly seeing a doctor when they have a cold and having cancer cured cost exactly the same, i.e. nothing. That actively encourages frivolous use of the medical system.

If I get a prescription filled I have a choice between the generic and the branded version (where both are available). I can have the branded one but only if I want to pay more. I pay $30 each time I visit the GP. As a result I can get a same-day appointment rather than wait for 2 weeks as I used to have to do in London in winter. Rationing in that case was being done by time rather than by price to the patient.

If you compare the NHS against the failing US system the NHS is clearly better. If you compare the NHS against all systems the NHS comes up as mediocre.

No, you can have an emergency same day appt at the GP if you wish. There are OOH GP services. With BUPA you get a lot of treatment options. The overall healthcare model in the UK is designed so that there is a safety net in the NHS that covers everyone to prevent whats happened in the States. For those a little more affluent other options come into play.
If you compare the UKs healthcare model against all systems, from my view, I can't think of anything that comes close. Not Australia. And certainly not America.
Which makes it even more galling when that Tory MP went over to slander the NHS on American TV when Obamas healthcare drive was in progress. Said he wouldn't wish the NHS on anyone.
The sad part is people take it for granted and abuse it, and it won't be appreciated until and unless their drive for privatisation of hospitals comes in, with the financial incentives for superfluous investigations and treatments, whilst putting into play even longer waiting times for free patients, only then will most people recognise how fantastic this system is.

elantan

maybe i am living in a parrallel (sp) universe , but i didnt see anything new in last nights t.v programme, there have been tent cities all over the u.s.a for years, there have been queues at free medical facilities starting at 2am for years, this wasnt news to me, yes still very appalling but nothing new

i noticed when in Florida last year that things had gotten worse (compared to when i was last in Florida), going around walmart i could see huge differences, watching the t.v adverts gave alot away also, the road we travelled just driving to tampa was hugely different compared to the last time i was there, although i also noticed out of the part of 12 that went to Florida last year it was only my husband and myself that noticed it, when i pointed things out to the others they were unaware of these differences, it was as if they couldnt see the wood for the trees.

when i went to Ohio 8 years ago, i saw poverty that was worse than when i went to The Gambia several years before, there was a difference in their style of poverty though.

in The Gambia kids were running about barefoot with running noses and streaming eyes etc, we spent several days with various groups of people and they literally had rice to eat and a little bit more, yet they seemed willing to share what little they had, they enjoyed talking to people and learning about different lifestyles, the kids enjoyed playing games with us and we had a ball, families couldnt afford to send their kids to school but they wanted to to, they wanted to give their children the best that they could..

In Ohio though, the poverty was more desperate, the people still had cars ( unlike The Gambia) but they were done in, the people had clothes, the people had money, but they lived in squalor (unlike the Gambian houses we visited which were spotless) they would have a large screen t.v blaring on in the background, they would show you their gun collection ( it was truly a nerve racking experience) and sit and get drunk from morning till night, defecating themselves and bemoaning the fact that they had lost their job, house, family etc... some couldnt afford to feed their kids ( we took food with us)and yet they could afford to drink

some were desperate to change their circs ( they didnt drink or live in squalor, they however found themselves stuck and unable to move)

i also have friends that live on reservations and their experiences sound similar to what mine were...

two totally different kinds of poverty and although the Gambians had alot less i would rather experience their poverty than U.S poverty

i do however think that the poverty that british citizens will experience would be more similar to the U.S than the Gambians ...

gailey_2

Only caught end of it have to catch up on i player.

but seen things on pverty in america on newsnight and sky news.Think even c4 done few peices on it.

Flipping healthcare bit unequal here too its postcode lottory,
my family live in wales and get free prescriptions yet family freind whos very ill could get drugs he need in england but not wales.
Was only recent years bristol got 12week baby scans on nhs .

Never been to oz or the states. have family in the states though.

and few things on tv caught my eye.

That horrible wanted down under programme on bbc 1 watched a few times and said people have health insurance as they pay if ambulance visits their home.
2nd-maybe poor choice in programmes its like trashy tv oz biggest loser so funny better than uk/us version and they always saying oz has huge obesity problem 2nd biggest after the states so worse than uk.So baffled how life expectancy be longer.

I spoke to old school freind at xmas she works in states expecting 2nd child and hates fact the sytems overmedicalised they all put on drips and epidurals as soon as they go in and have high c section rates and stay in hospital for days being wheeled round in wheelchairs and dont really have the midwife led system we have here.

Yes their health insurance covers it but reckon its more costly than a normal birth here.
Over there obstetrician/doctors deliver and they also do a lot of stuff the gp nurse would do over here so think we probably cheaper.They also whip babies off and care for them in nursery just like film!

Having 3kids myself I know that midwife leds much cheaper. On c4 hospital it said teen pregancies are classes as high risk therefore requiring consultant led care and each pregnancy from checkups to birtch costs 10grand! Can only get epidural here if require one or anesathist is free, normnally have to beg for any drugs. Once baby born get kicked out hospital as soon as possible.
with 2/3rd kids get less antenatal checks, we get less scans here and less postnatal checks by midwife and hv so say cheaper

We have private healthcare through hubbys work to cover whole family.
but not used it yet and theres a few excemption.s
good old gordon brown decided to tax it few years back meaning costs us £800 a year for free work benefit. Would love to not see means tested system but for those who do opt to have private healthcare or through work maybe have small tax rebate if use it as saves resources on nhs that needs it.

John humprees did progarmme before xmas on welfare is usa they only get 99weeks js then thats it.
then its foodstamps. Not sure they get council or housing benefits hence why tent cities.
read about people living in cars and whenever see so caled poor families in us its always extended family living with them where as think family much more spread out in uk.

read cuts mean no streetlights on or rise in crime.

does make me feel thankful that we really not that bad in uk just wish people appreciate uk a bit more,

ILW

It is a little difficult to sympathise with someone who tells you they are living in abject poverty, yet weigh 30 stone.

elantan

they are probably very malnourished though ... crazy as that sounds

Norfolk_Jim

I have a great difficulty understanding the American mindset. I often tell my children not to assume that America and the UK are the same, they are quite different, theres much we have in common but significant differences also.
As sweeping generalisms go, the Americans seem to despise any notion of social health care or anything that could in any way be percieved as even mildly socialist.
In Britain we have a history of being broadly socialist, maybe not as much as some of of European neighbours, but still socialist.
Now I am far enough of a right wing socialist to sometimes agree with Mr White Horse - and I do believe that social security should be reformed, it should not be divorced from work - even those on benefits should do something in return for them - But the USA and healthcare really shock me, and its frankly obscene the way Joe Public over there go along with only the wealthy getting health care - the NHS is one of the very few things I'd take to the streets to protect. It isnt perfect and theres parts of it I'd disagree with but over and over the NHS has come to my rescue and that of my family. The Americans seem to feel its wrong for them to pay for someone elses health care but they never seem to consider that in return someone / everyone else will pay for theirs.