Passing ownership over to 3 people via will. Query..?

xylophone

Once you have probate and your mother knows where she is financially, then it would be wise for her to see a solicitor and set out her affairs in full so that she can obtain expert advice relevant to her particular situation.

Nine_Lives

G_M wrote: »

Why pass the house to the 3 kids?

Because that is her decision. She would like to leave it to us 3. I personally would like to keep it - whether one of us moves in, or whether we join forces & do it up for rental (because it certainly will need doing up). Question is, the house & land with it (by land i mean garden area & shed) is quite large. I'm no rental expert but i wouldn't have thought this sort of house & land size would be popular on the rental market. I may well be wrong - i'm only guessing.

Are there any other assets/investments/savings?

There would be. If she died today then probably about £20k in cash, that's all. This is all she'd have - unless you start counting things like washing machines & such.

Will your mum's estate (her total assets less debts) be liable for Inheritance Tax? If so, are there other assets available in the Estate to pay the IT? If not, the house will need to be sold to pay the tax.

This is where i get a bit hazy. Can her IT limit be raised by acquiring some of my dads allowance or am i thinking of something else? (You can tell i'm not too hot on this). As i was told by a family friend who deals in this sort of area that her limit [for something] will have risen somewhat. I just can't remember what was said.
Anyway, i don't know if it'll be liable for IT. The house i would imagine to be about £175k if that helps? It would certainly be worth more if areas of the house were looked at/modernised.

Far easier to simply leave the remainder of her estate (the house if it is still there, or the cash from its sale, plus other savings etc) to the 3 kids equally.

She's wanting to leave the house equally, yes. And any money that remains.

The decision about keeping/selling the property can then be made at that time, depending on the financial position of mum's Estate as a whole, and the preference of the Beneficiaries at that time.

Fair point. I appreciate peoples opinions CAN change, but i can almost assure you that mine wont & i highly doubt my sisters will either. My brother is the question mark, but only because i've not really spoken to him. He's very passive.

And never appoint a professional as Executer

She's asked if i will be the executer

paddedjohn wrote: »

Alternatively your mum may decide to sell up and downsize and spend the spare cash on holidays.

As above - you can never predict the future, but i know my mum & the likelihood of the above is extremely unlikely. She would only sell as a last resort. If she HAD to raise serious cash then she would be forced to sell & this is the only way she would let the house go.

DVardysShadow wrote: »

So why not just denominate it in 1/3 rds rather than %?

I was just on auto-pilot thinking 1/3 = 33.33333333333% (i.e. not divisible into 100). I wasn't thinking 1/3 x 3 = 3/3 or just "1".

Here's a nice feeling stupid moment then

googler wrote: »

Total madness to leave a house to three relatives anyway.

That's your opinion. You're not right or wrong. I just disagree that it is "madness"

It'll just lead to conflict over who wants to move in/buy the others out/rent it from the others

As i say above - you can't predict the future ... and that also applies to yourself. There wont necessarily be conflict. Yes there possibly will be conflict, but it's not a certainty such as we're all going to die.

Far better to specify in the will that the house be sold by the executor, and the proceeds divided three ways.

If the 3 remaining children want it to be kept, then how is forcing a sale "far better"? That would most certainly bring conflict.

Unless you really WANT to be organising a three-way sale once you get a third of the house? Unless two of you WANT to be landlords to the third?

I don't know much/anything about being a landlord, but at the moment, the thought of it isn't so much of a bad one to me. Whether we go 3 ways on it, or 2 ways & buy the other sibling out or what. Whether a stranger lives in it or one of us live in it.

I have started paying into my pension quite late - at 28, and even though i've just started last month, i'm not able to contribute a great deal. The thought of renting it out & having a source of income is appealing. Granted i don't know the ins & outs of renting a property out, so once i do i may be put off by the thought ... but then i may not be.

roger196 wrote: »

Whilst I am not clear how the mother inherited the house ie by will or by survivorship,

bit of both really. He left it to her in the will but the solicitor said it would've passed to her via survivorship anyway.

The surviving spouse is given a life interest in the trust,

I don't understand this bit. There is no spouse from this point forth, never mind a surviving one. I know as outsiders looking in, you will argue that my mum MAY meet another man & get married & i can understand where you'd be coming from as you don't know my mum. However, as i do know her & as she's already said, i can say it's 99% likely that this wont happen.

A clause could also protect against bankruptcy of any of the children.

Thanks for raising this point. Certainly something she needs to discuss with a solicitor.

eamon

Don't do this. It took over over 50 years, numerous deaths and lots of legal bills to to unravel my grandmothers will. To this day I still don't have a clear understanding of certain actions that happened in the 1980's and I suppose I never will and I don't trust the motives of some cousins to this day.

G_M

I would still advise that the will simply specifies that her estate be divided equally between the 3 children. No mention specifically of the house.

If you are Executer, you will have to arrange probate. Work out the value of the estate (house value at the time plus other savings/investments) and work out any debts, Inheritance Tax etc.

If the IT (if any) can be paid from the savings, fine. You then discuss at that point with the other 2 Beneficiaries what to do with the house:

1) sell and split proceeds
2) change ownership into 3 names
3) change ownership into 2 names with 1/3 of the value at Probate being paid by those 2 to th 1/3 child who does not want ownership
4) change ownership into one name (with that child paying the other 2 the appropriate amount)

If you choose 2) above, you also have to decide
5) whether to rent, and split income (and rental expenses)
6) one moves in and pays the other 2 rent
7) etc

But by leaving the decision to this stage, rather than your mum specifying the house in the will, you have flexibility. You can still keep the house if thats what you want, but you have options.

Nine_Lives

Thanks very much GM (& others).

What we've done with my dads estate & the whole probate malarkey is let the solicitor deal with it. We did what we could - sorting direct debits, cancelling various things, filling out various forms that we could, changing house insurance, getting in touch with the tax office etc.
There were things we weren't confident doing though. It was all well & good members of MSE saying get a book, have a read & do it yourself because you can save money, but if you're not sure about what you're doing then you're not sure. With it all being legalities, we wanted it to be spot on & know that it would be spot on. Not do it ourselves & hope we got it right.

The solicitor quoted sub £1000 as they said my dads estate was quite simple. My mum had many £1000s in mind, so she was happy to make payment for peace of mind.

If i felt i couldn't manage that side of things, then like my mum, i would make payment.


I know you can't help with this as you can't possible know our area, our house, our land/garden etc, but my concern about renting is the appeal of the house to the rental market.
To those looking to buy, the house would likely get snapped up in an instant. A detached house with secure (not just off road, but secure) parking, situated very close to a motorway junction, a university (Lancaster university which i read has been voted up there with the top universities in the country (note: up there, not 'THE')), 5 mile from the city centre, a large garden, 2 small sheds & a fairly large shed as well as a small extension.

As i say, i know nothing about renting - but i would imagine people looking to rent just want something basic - living room, kitchen, bathroom, 2-4 bedrooms, small garden which is easy to maintain & that's-yer-lot, rather than our type of house.

Which (if i'm right) would point towards one of us 3 occupying it and either renting off the other 2 or buying out the other 2, or us selling it.
Unfortunately, the house will not fetch its potential due to the work it really needs to bring it up to date. You'd see it on homes under the hammer. Everything would be stripped & modernised. There are issues with damp as it's about a 200-300yr old cottage & i'm guessing the damp proofing regs weren't the same back then.

But i'm getting off topic now.

zzzLazyDaisy

It depends how your mum's will is worded, but very often where the spouse is already deceased and there are just children to inherit, the instruction is that the executor is to sell everything, pay the funeral expenses and any other outstanding debts and bills, and divide the residue between the children still living at the date of her death.

But to be honest I think you are getting a bit ahead of yourself - by the time your mum passes, anything could have happened - one of the children my already have died and there might only be two to inherit (which actually happened to me as we lost our sister young and suddenly, so although she was named in my mum's will, her share passed to myself and my brother). She might re-marry to someone with children and buy a house with him, in which case it gets even more complicated.. or she may go into a home and the house may have to be sold to pay for her care - or she may sell up, rent a HA bungalow, and spend your inheritance on a round the world cruise (that's what I am going to do).

But to answer your question, if the house is left to the three of you and one wants to sell, then the other two would have to raise the money to pay him his 1/3 share of the value.

getmore4less

Now you have fleshed out the situation a bit I would seriously think this through.

If we all kept the family homes we would all have loads of places or be living in our grandparents places.

This does not happen any more people move about so extended families tend not to exist.

Even longer term family homes are not always suitible for the next generation so are they really worth keeping.


With 3 siblings you need a plan, ideally one that mum can buy into and if possible start the ball rolling.

Any uplift in value after she dies is a CGT issue but before becomes exempt.

Sorting out the end goals even if this is very early is worth talking about.

Probate and the IHT forms are relatively easy but with 3 siblings this could be an issue, get the forms and have a practice run, you learn a lot that way and can ask the questions that mum can answer a lot easier now.

Handy as pre planning for the will.

Might also kick the fallow sibling into gear.

Nine_Lives

Thanks guys.

There's also the very real possibility that my brother & sister, or one of them, could still be living in the house at the time. I am actually looking at moving out in 2013. But then we can paint all manner of scenarios - like you say, you can get ahead of yourself, but at the same time this doesn't stop one from planning (by planning, i don't mean in the scheming sense).

I agree though - i think my mum should enjoy all she has. I think that should apply to anyone & everyone.

My dad made a thing about it - saying we'll all profit when he dies. Yes, BUT i would rather receive £0.00 & have my dad!! He had 'a way' with words though.
He said that he would not leave his family lumped with a burial bill though - and i agree with this. I would hate for someone to pay out of their own pocket to bury me. I know not all families have the luxury of putting money aside for this, but if you/they can, then i think it should be done. I certainly wont have anyone paying out of their pocket to bury/burn me.

And i think the same should apply to my mum - she should put some aside for burial - be it hard cash or a policy, and then enjoy the rest while she's still breathing.

She wanted to split my dads money 4 ways - her 3 kids & herself.
We were all in the room & straight away i said no chance - that money is HERS & i wont accept any of it. She tried to change my mind but i wasn't having it. I don't know whether my brother & sister would then feel a bit tight/greedy if they took some money, but they followed suit - told her to keep the money.

getmore4less wrote: »

Might also kick the fallow sibling into gear.

:rotfl::rotfl::rotfl:Trust me, we've tried. That one is a lost cause!! lol. If it's not driving around the town, oggling 'birds' or peeing money down a drain, then he's not interested.

I'm being a bit harsh on him there (sort of), but there is a portion of truth in my dig at him

G_M

K_P83 wrote: »

:rotfl::rotfl::rotfl:Trust me, we've tried. That one is a lost cause!! lol. If it's not driving around the town, oggling 'birds' or peeing money down a drain, then he's not interested.

I'm being a bit harsh on him there (sort of), but there is a portion of truth in my dig at him

Apart from all the unknowns' (one of you marries, passes away etc)mentioned above, this is the real worrying bit.

Do you really want to be running a rental business with him?

Or want him as your landlord if you move in and he moves out? Or your tenant (vice verse)?

Split the whole Estate 3 ways, NOT the house. Decide what to do with the house when the time comes.

Nine_Lives

He's the one that i don't think would be interested in keeping the house. That said, i also don't think he will be interested in selling the house either. I just don't think he will be interested .... in life.

You ask him if he wants to do something, his answer is iuno. Yes, iuno, not i don't know, a noise that sounds like iuno.

I think if my sister & i offered to buy him out then he'd take it. I would happily run the rental with my sister.

That said, who knows, by the time this all becomes a reality, he might've grown up some & stepped into the real world.

I'm being very harsh on him to be fair. He's not a BAD person, he's just so laid back it's untrue. He has no care for nothing.

But you're right - we should decide on the house when the time comes & split 3 ways.


But a point made earlier stood out for me - none of us 3 want to be inheriting any debts. How do you protect against that? My mum has no debts to my knowledge, but we certainly don't want to be lumped with any nasty bills.