Challenging a PCN - two questions

g4efe

Hello everyone - My 85yr old father in law bought a ticket and placed it on the dash. When he returned to the car he had been issued a PCN for not displayed the ticket clearly (it was upside down). On his behalf I made an online informal challenge, saying that there had been no attempt at evasion, that he still has the ticket, that is was an honest mistake. We just received the standard rejection letter saying they had exercised discretion (I'm not sure where) and that the PCN had been correctly issued so pay the fine.

I have now written a three-page letter containing a multi-pronged mitigation: that the council are being unreasonable, that the signage at the car park merely says that the ticket should be clearly displayed, no mention of the information on the ticket (!), that the ticket ref number on the back of the ticket, photographed by the enforcement officer would have enabled the validity of the ticked to be verified. I've also included a cut-and-paste from the Traffic Penalty Tribunal website detailing a case exactly like ours, where the appeal was allowed. Finally, some quotes from Caroline Sheppard, chief adjudicator, saying that the public should appeal cases such as mine.

So, do I need to wait until we get the Notice to Owner or can I bypass the process and send that letter now (so my FiL can stop worrying)?

Second - can I seek to recover costs should they decide to pursue this, as an extra incentive for them to drop it.

Third - If it comes to adjudication, can I represent my father in law, as the thought of having to appear would worry him deeply?

OK that's three questions. Any comments or pointers much appreciated.

Thanks - Martin

vax2002

Once you have the rejection letter you should apply to the adjudicator as early as possible.
Most cases the council will offer no evidence and the case will be struck out.

Orford

vax2002 wrote: »

Once you have the rejection letter you should apply to the adjudicator as early as possible.
Most cases the council will offer no evidence and the case will be struck out.

OP cannot apply to the adjudicator until the formal appeal to the NTO has been rejected. He hasn't received the NTO yet.

@OP. There is nothing to stop you making further representations before the NTO, but to be honest, it's unlikely to have any effect.

No to costs.

yes to representing your FIL at adjudication. He will also have to attend

Coupon-mad

g4efe wrote: »

Hello everyone - My 85yr old father in law bought a ticket and placed it on the dash. When he returned to the car he had been issued a PCN for not displayed the ticket clearly (it was upside down). On his behalf I made an online informal challenge, saying that there had been no attempt at evasion, that he still has the ticket, that is was an honest mistake. We just received the standard rejection letter saying they had exercised discretion (I'm not sure where) and that the PCN had been correctly issued so pay the fine.

I have now written a three-page letter containing a multi-pronged mitigation: that the council are being unreasonable, that the signage at the car park merely says that the ticket should be clearly displayed, no mention of the information on the ticket (!), that the ticket ref number on the back of the ticket, photographed by the enforcement officer would have enabled the validity of the ticked to be verified. I've also included a cut-and-paste from the Traffic Penalty Tribunal website detailing a case exactly like ours, where the appeal was allowed. Finally, some quotes from Caroline Sheppard, chief adjudicator, saying that the public should appeal cases such as mine.

So, do I need to wait until we get the Notice to Owner or can I bypass the process and send that letter now (so my FiL can stop worrying)?

Second - can I seek to recover costs should they decide to pursue this, as an extra incentive for them to drop it.

Third - If it comes to adjudication, can I represent my father in law, as the thought of having to appear would worry him deeply?

OK that's three questions. Any comments or pointers much appreciated.

Thanks - Martin

Can't see that you have posted a picture of the PCN and rejection letter in a new topic on pepipoo yet?

http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showforum=30

That's where you need to be to see this through.

Yes you can write another letter and send it now - you can write more before the NTO is issued. The Council have to consider all informal appeals before NTO.

But go on pepipoo first and read the FAQs 'how to post pictures' and read a few other threads to get the gist of whast to post on a pepipoo thread.

Include in your letter to the Council, a photocopy of the P&D ticket and say that you realise this may help them to be sure your online appeal was genuine, here's a hard copy of the P&D ticket which was indeed on the dashboard. Add your quote from Caroline Sheppard.

Also Google 'fluttering parking ticket' and read the 2006 Chief Adjudicator's report if that's not where you already got Caroline Sheppard's quote from. There are successful cases on that report and you'll see it can hinge on the wording of the Traffic Order (not just the signs).

So make sure your letter requires the Council to provide you with a copy of the Traffic Order which they say was contravened, in the event they are still rejecting your appeal.

vax2002

What will be very important in the adjudication will be what you say with regards to the ticket.
They are saying it was upside down, you are saying it was correctly displayed.
If the ticket had no sticky, then there is an allowance for fluttering ticket.
what is important is you dont do the councils job by stating he "may" have placed it upside down, unless that is an established fact, dont give them the thread to pull.
For all you know, it may have blown over or they could have rocked the car.

g4efe

Now posted to the pepipoo

forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=68135

Don't seem allowed to post link here (new member, although been signed up since 2006) so please copy and paste the above.

Thanks for comments so far.

Martin

Coupon-mad

Here's your thread I think but you need to add a picture of the back of the PCN as well:

http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=68135

You will be able to post links on MSE when you've made a certain number of posts (20?).

Good luck, if I get a moment I will reply on your thread if no-one else does by tomorrow. I am SchoolRunMum over on pepipoo but see my reply above first for what to include in your letter. Maybe draft your appeal then post it on pepipoo for comments if your thread isn't replied to quickly? A basic appeal usually gets a reply from a pepipoo expert to improve it!

And add the back of the PCN asap.

g4efe

Thanks for all the advice so far. Have now posted up most the images I have, my draft letter etc, on PePipoo (does that actually MEAN anything?).
Luckily (?) I've been off work these last two days with man-flu or I'd never had found the time!

give_them_FA

Just a suggestion. Whilst costs are (sadly) not normally granted to successful appellants, there is a provision for the adjudicator to award costs where one party has behaved unreasonably. IF there is a clear precedent showing that the Tribunal allows appeals on identical facts as your case; AND you have made the Council aware of this but they haven't listened; then their refusal to cancel the PCN- knowing they will inevitably lose it on appeal- surely becomes "unreasonable". If this is the case you should put them on notice that you will seek costs from them, and include this in your appeal statements to make the Adjudicator aware.

Sirdan

give_them_FA wrote: »

Just a suggestion. Whilst costs are (sadly) not normally granted to successful appellants, there is a provision for the adjudicator to award costs where one party has behaved unreasonably. IF there is a clear precedent showing that the Tribunal allows appeals on identical facts as your case; AND you have made the Council aware of this but they haven't listened; then their refusal to cancel the PCN- knowing they will inevitably lose it on appeal- surely becomes "unreasonable". If this is the case you should put them on notice that you will seek costs from them, and include this in your appeal statements to make the Adjudicator aware.

Snowball in hell's chance IMO.
As these adjudications do not set precedents it is entirely possible to get the opposite decision even on "identical" facts ...strange, but true.
The council is aware of this and as such they will argue that they are not behaving unreasonably by failing to take note of any previous decision (s).

give_them_FA

As you say, a matter of opinion. I was going by the OP's assertion that the decision was so entrenched as to be published on the Tribunal's website, so it would be a perverse Adjudicator who didn't follow it. Haven't actually checked it so just a little suggestion for what it was worth.