The Austerity Disaster

Conrad

pqrdef wrote: »

So you want European workers working like Indians.

This is not about what you or I want, the only determinant is what the consumer wants to pay.

You as a consumer buy cheap Chinese products to satisfy your own greed to minimise outgoings.

You therefore determine by your actions the price points and salaries.

You CHOSE often not to buy British clothes as they are more expensive (M&S gave up supporting British textiles as consumers like you kept on voting for Chinese products).

Stop expecting some etherial power to allow you to enjoy higher pay and conditions whilst you DEMAND lower pay and condtions as a result of your buying habits.

Something has to give.

ILW

pqrdef wrote: »

Why not? It's easy enough. You work out how much you can pay yourself for a year. Then divide it into 12 monthly instalments and set a percentage aside for a pension.

If you mean that the business isn't making any money when she's not working, well that's the same for everybody. All employees' wages are implicitly set on the basis that they get the value of say 44 weeks' worth of work, spread out over 52 weeks. Nobody is paid for 52 weeks' worth of work, as if holiday pay grows on trees.

Blimey, I never realised it was that simple.

What happens when the businesses isn't making any money even when she is working?

Conrad

pqrdef wrote: »

Trade unionists went through a lot of hardships to obtain a better future for future generations,


Of course there was always the danger that they would price themselves out of the market. But some see that not as a danger but as a golden opportunity to turn the clock back. What lovely people.

You frame those you see as wanting to turn the clock back, sarcastically, as 'lovely people'.

This neat side step allows you to avoid the ugly truth which is people like YOU CHOOSE to buy products made using slave labour and thereby renaige on your supposed passion to support the just British worker.

Conrad

vivatifosi wrote: »

Have you ever run a small business pqrdef? You can't work out how much you can pay yourself for a year until you have built up enough cash in the business that you know how much you are going to earn.

Maybe it's just the business I'm in, but I knew within 3 months what the business generated per day, broadly what the daily costs of business were, broadly what to set aside for Tax, and thus roughly what I could take as a monthly income. One benefit I found from having a sales background, was this focus on breaking everything down to a daily balance sheet.

I suspect it's far less predictable though for a manufacturing type business.


I'm often struck by how some business people with similarly predictable business' model as myself, in fact lead a hand to mouth chaotic existence. They cant even tell me how much they set aside for Tax, as they just sort of spend the money and hope for the best when the Tax bill 'suddenly':rotfl:arrives.

It's not uncommon for them to view most of the income as 'thiers to spend' without having any reguard for future inevitable costs.

I'm also struck by clients who always say they are busy and imply doing well, but when I break everything down, they are in fact pretty precarious. I wish I had thier optimistic outlook - would make life easier:p
Some of themn have no idea what thier daily profit expectation is, it just never crosses thier mind as they are too busy, well, just pushing paper around and fielding calls and as I like to say 'indulging in non value added activity'.

vivatifosi

Conrad wrote: »

Maybe it's just the business I'm in, but I knew within 3 months what the business generated per day, broadly what the daily costs of business were, broadly what to set aside for Tax, and thus roughly what I could take as a monthly income.

A lot will depend on what type of business you are in. If you have a business where your cash through the business is relatively smooth, such as a shop, restaurant, estate agent, it can be a lot easier than if you have a small number of higher value sales. The line of business that I am in I have a relatively small number of high value customers and raise few invoices. I have always known that I could make the business model work (which it now does) but it did take longer to get going than I would have liked. Though having the recession and credit crunch in the start up period didn't help.

In my line of business, the difference between what I earned in my best year and what I earned in my worst year is about 400%, it takes a while to be able to build that into the business and smooth it. I come from a background where high value invoices are the norm. A particular risk in this type of business is the loss of one key customer, generally the largest, can have a very difficult if not catastrophic impact. It takes a while to be able to build up a business that is resilient to that, but thankfully I now have.

Generali

Conrad wrote: »

This is not about what you or I want, the only determinant is what the consumer wants to pay.

You as a consumer buy cheap Chinese products to satisfy your own greed to minimise outgoings.

You therefore determine by your actions the price points and salaries.

You CHOSE often not to buy British clothes as they are more expensive (M&S gave up supporting British textiles as consumers like you kept on voting for Chinese products).

Stop expecting some etherial power to allow you to enjoy higher pay and conditions whilst you DEMAND lower pay and condtions as a result of your buying habits.

Something has to give.

Back of the net.

The fact is that several hundred million workers have entered the labour market in China and India alone. They are replacing workers in the 'West' by simply working for less money.

For the most part, so far they have replaced low wage, low value added workers. Increasingly that isn't the case.

In most areas of banking for example a lot of jobs that are reasonably skilled which require some experience are moving to places like China, India and Poland. The reason? They do the job just as well for a lot less money. These are the sort of jobs that pay perhaps £35-80,000pa and which pay a lot of tax as this is all PAYE so there's no tax avoidance.

A lot of blue collar work has gone 'East', now it looks to me like a lot of white collar ones are following. Things like accounting, IT, law are moving away from the UK because the demand is for ever cheaper products.

It's comforting to pretend that these Indian workers are inferior to British ones but that simply isn't the case. I've had problems with competency when dealing with India, London, Frankfurt, New York. Overall none are better or worse than any other and to believe otherwise is to ignore the biggest threat to your livelihoods and precious welfare state.

pqrdef

hallmark wrote: »

For a start there is no austerity

Most of it is still at the planning stage. It doesn't really start to kick in until next year.

Universal Benefit doesn't start until next year, if then, and it won't become universal overnight. The cap will never take full effect because too many anomalies will emerge. Already there's talk of transitional arrangements, but they aren't in the legislation now being railroaded through and nobody knows what they're going to be.

But the cap plays well with the voters, so it's a good distraction while Cameron back-pedals in Brussels.

Conrad

Generali wrote: »

Back of the net.

The fact is that several hundred million workers have entered the labour market in China and India alone. They are replacing workers in the 'West' by simply working for less money.

I'm interested in your thoughts on the usual line trotted out that 'we must'nt make this a race to the bottom' (people like Mark Lewis, Poly Toignbe and Will Self always use this line).

They imply we can wrest control over the market and pretty much demand high incomes, high pensions, long paternity pay and such.

Am I missing something or are these folk just not practical thinkers, in so far as they somehow mentally decouple thier bargain buying habits from thier demands for cosetting British workers?

pqrdef

IronWolf wrote: »

Whether it is "priced in" to salaries or not, the fact is if you are self employed, you not only face the cost of a holiday, but also not earning money, that can mean a cost of around £1k just for a one week holiday.

This is basically the complaint of an employer moaning that his staff don't work 52 weeks a year and he has to cover their absences at his own expense. It's a basic fact of business, like having to buy materials.

IronWolf wrote: »

there is an added stress with being self employed unless you are earning very comfortable amounts.

Business is risky, and it's bound to be stressful if it needs a lot of luck to be viable.

But this started with a claim that the self-employed have no rights, and I'm not getting there from here. If employees have rights, employers have obligations, and the self-employed are also self-employers.

In fact every self-employed person should pay himself a decent compensation package. Of course, as the proprietor, he may have to lend himself the money. But if he's giving hidden subsidies to the business that aren't in the accounts, by underselling his own labour, then he's avoiding being honest with himself about the financial status and viability of the business.

StevieJ

ILW wrote: »

Blimey, I never realised it was that simple.

What happens when the businesses isn't making any money even when she is working?

I suppose you always go and work for someone who knows what they are doing