Greece...

Thrugelmir

N1AK wrote: »

A lot of Greeks want less austerity, and want that debt writing off.

If the ECB buys the debt. It doesn't get written off. The Greek Government merely owes the ECB rather than investors. The buying of debt merely injects liquidity into the Euro as a currency.

Voyager2002

antrobus wrote: »

Err, actually it did. Somalia was essentially a communist dictatorship between 1969 and 1991, propped up by Soviet money and Cuban troops. When the wheels came of the Soviet bus, the Barre regime collapsed into civil war.

Some might say that was the reason why Somalia became a wreck.

Not true. Somalia was a western ally after 1974: the USA's main counter to the pro-communist regime in Ethiopia. That is why it was US troops who were attempting to clear up the mess in 1991 when they were kidnapped (as in the film).

antrobus

Voyager2002 wrote: »

Not true. Somalia was a western ally after 1974: the USA's main counter to the pro-communist regime in Ethiopia. That is why it was US troops who were attempting to clear up the mess in 1991 when they were kidnapped (as in the film).

OK, I may have got confused as to which side the Cuban troops were on.:)

But nevertheless, Somalia was the Somali Democratic Republic between 1969 and 1991. And it was a communist dictatorship run by Barre and his Somali Revolutionary Socialist Party. So to say that "Somalia has been a wreck for years without any socialist policies" would be wrong, because it had a lot of socialist policies between 1969 and 1991 before becoming a wreck.

antrobus

N1AK wrote: »

My point exactly, Norway has comparatively socialist policies yet is thriving because those aren't the most important determinant of economic success....

Norway is a capitalist country. At the very least it is just as capitalist a country as Greece.

N1AK wrote: »

...The label conservative hardly means anything. It's like an American dismissing claims the UK is relatively socialist because we have a conservative government, even though our political spectrum is so different to there's. ...

The Conservative Party of Norwayaka Høyre is a centre-right party. Wikipedia even describes it as a "reform party profess(ing) to the moderately conservative political tradition, adhering to the thoughts of Edmund Burke". I think that's the same Edmund Burke as the one that is regarded as the ideological father of our very own Conservative Party.

It's currently in government in coalition with the Progress Party. They are basically a populist neo-liberal more-immigration- controls-please type party. A bit like UKIP really.

N1AK wrote: »

...So when a country goes from socialist to capitalist it is socialisms fault that things don't get better for 20+ years, ....

Err what? I have said nothing at all about whose fault it was that Somalia collapsed into anarchy. I was simply pointing out that you were wrong in thinking that it hadn't followed "socialist policies".

N1AK wrote: »

..but when a capitalist country that is virtually falling apart votes in a more socialist government (Greece potentially) if it then fully fails it's socialisms fault. That's a mighty fine pair of blinkers you've got!

Greece had a "more socialist government" before it began "virtually falling apart". Perhaps you haven't realised that PASOK was the Panhellenic Socialist Movement.:)

Generali

N1AK wrote: »

Doesn't sound like stupidity to me. A lot of Greeks want less austerity, and want that debt writing off. If the ECB buys the Greek debt he looks like he influenced the decision, if they don't he can blame the current government and/or stoke anti-EU sentiment by claiming the EU is victimising Greece.

Stupidity largely depends on his intended outcome and what he believes, not what he says in public.

When the UK government pays a coupon on its debt the Bank of England makes a profit and pays a dividend to the UK government.

The Greek Government will be paying a coupon to the ECB which is owned by the member states' central banks so presumably the coupon will be paid to the Eurozone members by the ECB in effect. I have a funny feeling that the Greek people aren't going to be happy when they work out that they are suffering whilst paying billions of Euros to other Governments.

TheBlueHorse

they had it good for years. now its time to pay it all back. Same with ireland and their insanely generous benefits. now they're up in arms because they have to pay for water!!

wotsthat

TheBlueHorse wrote: »

they had it good for years. now its time to pay it all back. Same with ireland and their insanely generous benefits. now they're up in arms because they have to pay for water!!

Why pay it back if you don't have to? I'm sure the average Greek feels entirely disassociated from their country's debt. And if there's a fair to middling chance that someone borrowing money won't pay it back why lend it to them in the first place?

Easy to get angry about but the Greek bailouts could be seen as a payment to delay them being jettisoned from the EU at a time that would've had disastrous consequences for their Eurozone partners. Noises from Germany seem to indicate there's not so much of a 'you must stay at all costs' attitude anymore - maybe they think they can cope economically.

The latest problems in Greece seem to be based more in politics than economics - don't know if that's a step forwards or backwards.

CLAPTON

simply shows the EU experiment has failed.

it no longer serves the people of the EU

there is no reasonable doubt that the southern european countries would have been better off without the EU

Koicarp

Thrugelmir wrote: »

I'm not disagreeing with your comments. However without the bailouts what would the position be now? Potentially far worse.

Like the Scottish issue last year in the UK. A club only works while all it's members work collectively to the benefit of all. If a member sees personal gain and benefit to itself by following an independent course of action. Then the club will never work.

Don't forget either that Greece was never a rich country in the first place. With a fudged membership of the Euro. That really is at the root of it's problems.

Greek friends tend to think that had they left the euro in 2008/9 and devalued they would be well into recovery now. I don't think too many really believe that this particular club can work, with such disparity between the wealth of the northern nations and the problems of the southern economies. Agreed Greece was never rich, which is why she she should never have been admitted to the single currency.

worldtraveller

Prime Minister David Cameron chaired a meeting with officials from the finance ministry and the Bank of England on Monday to plan for a possible Greek exit from the euro zone a finance ministry source said.

George Osborne said on Sunday that Britain was stepping up contingency planning.

Reuters

Clearly there's increased Grexit risk currently and, with the likes of Alan Greenspan saying yesterday that it's “just a matter of time” before Greece drops out of the euro, contingency planning is naturally being heightened.