Greece...

remorseless

ruggedtoast wrote: »

They shouldn't have been able to accumulate the debt in the first place as they never met any of the terms for Euro entry. The Greek government was so inefficient and corrupt the auditors had to stop auditing them otherwise the 'wrong' result would have been arrived at. And France and Germany didn't want the wrong result.

Greece in the early 90's was legitimately a third world country. People actually using donkeys for transport and children tied to beds in orphanages because the state had no mechanism or money to look after them.

Letting them into the euro was no different to giving a single mother on benefits a platinum card with a year's 0% APR.

What Greece needed was aid and development and phased entry into the modern world. Thats exactly what they didn't get and I have no sympathy whatsoever that the Germans are now pretending their had no idea their loans wouldnt be fully repaid.

At least, I notice, France has the good grace to be embarrassed enough about their role in this catastrophe to mostly be quiet on the subject.

Merkel might want to borrow a bit of humility as I suspect the Euro Community's goodwill to her country might start to dry up pretty quickly if they think the German money taps have been turned off.

So it's everyone's fault that with access to cheaper money they overspent? I have had access to credit for a VERY long time, yet I don't feel forced to use it.

Maybe they should go back to the donkeys, there is no point pretending to be a highly industrialised country if they're not able to sustain themselves.
Even with their debt wiped Greece would still more likely not going to be able to function without aid...and for Greece to be helped, they need to be willing to reform otherwise it's oppressing people, even from the referendum yesterday it seems clear that Greek people do not want to be reformed and yet keep having a large purse!

Greece is roughly 3% of the EZ population, yet for years all we hear is about them...

mystic_trev

vivatifosi wrote: »

Varoufakis has resigned

He probably had no choice. I expect he's signed himself up for one of theses ridiculous Celeb TV shows like Celebrity Big Brother, Celebrity Wife Swap or maybe even I'm a Celebrity Greek, get me out of here!

Graham_Devon

remorseless wrote: »

So it's everyone's fault that with access to cheaper money they overspent? I have had access to credit for a VERY long time, yet I don't feel forced to use it.

I don't think anyone is saying it's everyone elses fault that Greece have ended up here.

But the lenders have to take some responsibility. Afterall, they are the ones supposed to be risk assessing the credit.

Borrowing money takes the agreement of both the lender and the borrower. At some point, the shift of blame moves towards the lender for lending regardless of he ability to pay.

With Greece, the borrower lost it's voice to agreement some time ago. Their finances were overtaken by an EU bureaucrat alongside Goldman Sachs geniuses and their terms designed and accepted by other nations.

As per your credit card example, if you kept maxing out your card and couldn't come up with payments, and to deal with your lack of payments the lender simply gives you even more credit - who is the idiot? It's not you.

You can blame the Greeks in isolation if you like. But that doesn't solve the problems the banks face which is one of lending far too much money.

ruggedtoast

remorseless wrote: »

So it's everyone's fault that with access to cheaper money they overspent? I have had access to credit for a VERY long time, yet I don't feel forced to use it.

Maybe they should go back to the donkeys, there is no point pretending to be a highly industrialised country if they're not able to sustain themselves.
Even with their debt wiped Greece would still more likely not going to be able to function without aid...and for Greece to be helped, they need to be willing to reform otherwise it's oppressing people, even from the referendum yesterday it seems clear that Greek people do not want to be reformed and yet keep having a large purse!

Greece is roughly 3% of the EZ population, yet for years all we hear is about them...

They are willing to reform. They have had 5 years of grinding recession to deal with, then just before their last election the EZ sent a nice unambiguous message to them that regardless of which party they voted for the Troika was going to be in charge of their country and they would be penniless for two generations.

Oddly enough this wound them up a bit and they voted for an anti austerity party. If you push people into a corner long enough they will come out swinging.

This whole scenario is absurd. Its like the United States taking on Peru as a 51st state then wondering why they havent coped at a State level.

remorseless

Graham_Devon wrote: »

As per your credit card example, if you kept maxing out your card and couldn't come up with payments, but your lender kept extending your credit - who is the idiot? It's not you.

It would be me. More likely the spending binge would lead to default and then bankrupt (dunno about UK well) and in Australia my credit file is going to be badly affected for 7 years and way longer even after that.
The bank will more likely write it off as a loss and move on fairly quickly.

wotsthat

Graham_Devon wrote: »

Got a lot to do with Hollande in my humble opinion. I doubt the French voice would have been quite so quiet under Sarkozy.

Of course.

The Greeks had a choice of which foot to shoot themselves in. They chose the one on the left.

Graham_Devon

remorseless wrote: »

It would be me. More likely the spending binge would lead to default and then bankrupt (dunno about UK well) and in Australia my credit file is going to be badly affected for 7 years and way longer even after that.
The bank will more likely write it off as a loss and move on fairly quickly.

That's the very point. The bank has put itself in a position where it's had to forgo a loss as it knew full well you couldn't repay it on your own.

You didn't do that. The bank did.

Sure, you spent the money - but the bank gave it to you knowing full well your frivolous spending habits.

It's like giving a drunk man the keys of a ferrari and then blaming him in isolation for wrapping it around the first bollard. You were bloody stupid to give him the keys.

The thing is, risk went out of the window when the EU (and the rest of the western world) started waving magic money tree wands.

ruggedtoast

Germany has never repaid

In a forceful interview with German newspaper Die Zeit, the star economist Thomas Piketty calls for a major conference on debt. Germany, in particular, should not withhold help from Greece

https://medium.com/@gavinschalliol/thomas-piketty-germany-has-never-repaid-7b5e7add6fff

remorseless

Graham_Devon wrote: »

That's the very point. The bank has put itself in a position where it's had to forgo a loss as it knew full well you couldn't repay it on your own.

You didn't do that. The bank did.

Sure, you spent the money - but the bank gave it to you knowing full well your frivolous spending habits.

It's like giving a drunk man the keys of a ferrari and then blaming him in isolation for wrapping it around the first bollard. You were bloody stupid to give him the keys.

The thing is, risk went out of the window when the EU (and the rest of the western world) started waving magic money tree wands.

What would have been a better option back then? Tell Greece, nope you won't get bailout and collapse 5 years ago? The outcome would have been the same, delayed, but not much different.

Chickereeeee

vivatifosi wrote: »

Varoufakis has resigned (bizarrely my tablet corrects his name to capitalism).

Statement suggests that he has done this for the greater good as the other countries just don't like negotiating with him. Nevertheless, surprised as he said he would do this if vote went the other way.

http://yanisvaroufakis.eu/2015/07/06/minister-no-more/

There was an article in the New York times (I think) which said V. was not very good with the details, and only really lectured on debt relief at the negotiations. Tsipras only sent him in when he wanted to annoy the Germans.

So it makes perfect sense to go.