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Advice on car purchase
rtanswell
Posts: 21 Forumite
Hi all,
I purchased a car from a dealer a few months back for £10k and over the weekend it developed a fault. The next week I tried to come to a resolution with the dealer and agreed to take it to a main dealer for repair. The dealer told me the head gasket had gone so I immediately tried to reject the car from the seller. He refused stating I must have done the damage. Anwyay, we have written reports from a main dealer saying the seller took it there 2 weeks before the sale and they diagnosed the same fault so it was sold in that condition knowingly by him. Now I have 2 thirds of the money back from credit card companies issuing a direct chargeback to his account (so they've not paid the money to me) but have a Visa dispute with the rest with my Debit Card company asking them to attempt a chargeback. I have made the vehicle available to the seller via recorded letter email etc to the seller in return for the rest of my money and cover of costs of hire car, loss of earnings etc (not unreasonable but costs incurred from the issue) and he has not replied to any communication. I believe he was a sole trader trading as. I went personally to give notice of vehicle disposal to him but company name has changed, cars shifted from old website to new company name but still unable to make contact (I have about 3 names for this guy and cannot locate him personally). I now have the V5 in my name as he never sent it off after sale so had to force it through DVLA. I now want to sell the car to recover my losses and costs but Consumer Direct said i cannot as I cannot prove I've given him notice of disposal (I tried to hand deliver a letter, emails not replied to and phone number has been changed) but I cannot contact this guy in any way. As the CC company have not directly paid out any money (and potentially I can reclaim costs from them), my theory is that I can sell the car to cover missing money and costs without the CC company having to fork out from their own pockets (as soon as they do I guess they have a right to the vehicle to help cover their costs). Sounds a bit complicated but now we have a new car and want to park it on the driveway and get rid of this one and also get my bank balance back to normal!
Can anyone advise of my situation? I've tried to serve notice of disposal but can't. It appears the original selling "company" no longer exist, their website has been taken down, no longer at premises. Could the owner of the company essentially lay claim to the car as the money has been taken back via a CC chargeback (albeit less a third and all my expenses). I'm worried if he does have a claim to the car as if I have to take him to small claims court for the rest, I won't be able to find him or he'll do a runner. Had conflicting info on this from solicitors, Consumer Direct, Police etc.
Just want to put an end to it all now and if I can make a bit of money by selling the car on (obviously being honest about it's problems and everything) and make a bit of money to cover my stress and costs etc, is that such a bad thing? Consumer Direct say he could potentially come and claim the car within a six year period, however surely my transaction was with the now defunct company and not the sole trader personally?
He's clearly a crook, we know of someone else he stitched up but they lived up in Scotland so made it more difficult. Trading Standards etc have been told about situation but I'm pretty sure this guy will continue to sell dodgy motors and just change the name at the first sign of trouble! A lesson learnt from me to get more info on a seller first, particularly sole traders!
I purchased a car from a dealer a few months back for £10k and over the weekend it developed a fault. The next week I tried to come to a resolution with the dealer and agreed to take it to a main dealer for repair. The dealer told me the head gasket had gone so I immediately tried to reject the car from the seller. He refused stating I must have done the damage. Anwyay, we have written reports from a main dealer saying the seller took it there 2 weeks before the sale and they diagnosed the same fault so it was sold in that condition knowingly by him. Now I have 2 thirds of the money back from credit card companies issuing a direct chargeback to his account (so they've not paid the money to me) but have a Visa dispute with the rest with my Debit Card company asking them to attempt a chargeback. I have made the vehicle available to the seller via recorded letter email etc to the seller in return for the rest of my money and cover of costs of hire car, loss of earnings etc (not unreasonable but costs incurred from the issue) and he has not replied to any communication. I believe he was a sole trader trading as. I went personally to give notice of vehicle disposal to him but company name has changed, cars shifted from old website to new company name but still unable to make contact (I have about 3 names for this guy and cannot locate him personally). I now have the V5 in my name as he never sent it off after sale so had to force it through DVLA. I now want to sell the car to recover my losses and costs but Consumer Direct said i cannot as I cannot prove I've given him notice of disposal (I tried to hand deliver a letter, emails not replied to and phone number has been changed) but I cannot contact this guy in any way. As the CC company have not directly paid out any money (and potentially I can reclaim costs from them), my theory is that I can sell the car to cover missing money and costs without the CC company having to fork out from their own pockets (as soon as they do I guess they have a right to the vehicle to help cover their costs). Sounds a bit complicated but now we have a new car and want to park it on the driveway and get rid of this one and also get my bank balance back to normal!
Can anyone advise of my situation? I've tried to serve notice of disposal but can't. It appears the original selling "company" no longer exist, their website has been taken down, no longer at premises. Could the owner of the company essentially lay claim to the car as the money has been taken back via a CC chargeback (albeit less a third and all my expenses). I'm worried if he does have a claim to the car as if I have to take him to small claims court for the rest, I won't be able to find him or he'll do a runner. Had conflicting info on this from solicitors, Consumer Direct, Police etc.
Just want to put an end to it all now and if I can make a bit of money by selling the car on (obviously being honest about it's problems and everything) and make a bit of money to cover my stress and costs etc, is that such a bad thing? Consumer Direct say he could potentially come and claim the car within a six year period, however surely my transaction was with the now defunct company and not the sole trader personally?
He's clearly a crook, we know of someone else he stitched up but they lived up in Scotland so made it more difficult. Trading Standards etc have been told about situation but I'm pretty sure this guy will continue to sell dodgy motors and just change the name at the first sign of trouble! A lesson learnt from me to get more info on a seller first, particularly sole traders!
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Comments
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If the car was under £30k then you are entitled to the lot back from the credit card co even if you only paid part of it on the credit card. Use a section 75 claim.
http://www.moneysavingexpert.com/shopping/section75-protect-your-purchases?utm_source=forum&utm_medium=clicks&utm_campaign=resourcebar0 -
Thanks. Already done that and I know that ultimately the credit card company are liable for it all.
My dilemma is that I doubt they will cover expenses for loss of earnings (I'm self employed Director of my own company so hard to prove) so all I'll get back are car hire costs.
If I don't claim it from the credit card and sell the car, it will cover all of my expenses and loss of earnings (and even the missing third of money if I can't get that charged back). So potentially I'm better off doing it that way.
In my opinion, the company I bought the car from don't exist any more, the V5 is in my name and I have proof of purchase. Potentially if all the money comes back via chargeback (ie out of his bank account not the CC company's own funds), he would have a right to the car. I don't think he'll come back and even if he did, he'd have to take me to court and the evidence against him is damning. Apparently you are not allowed to be "better off" when something like this happens so just a refund and expenses covered. But if I can sell the car, the proceeds would cover that and also a bit extra for my inconvenience and stress!
I appreciate it's a difficult, complicated one. The police seem to think the car is now ours, morally it's his but they don't think he'll return for it and he'd have to prove the car is his etc through the courts. If HMRC don't catch up with him first of course.
I'd like to do it the standard way, ie section 75 but the hassle and the fact I would get more money selling the car put me off.
Chances are though, I'll take that risk and the actual guilty party in all this (ie the seller) will come back and bite me on the bum (or creditors/receivers etc if he's bankrupt etc).
Ultimately I want the car gone so I can stop paying insurance to cover against theft and keep declaring sorn etc.0 -
The credit card co will also be responsible for all out off pocket expenses as well!0
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The credit card co will also be responsible for all out off pocket expenses as well!
Yes but they don't seem to class loss of earnings as out of pocket expenses. Very hard to prove too.
So you can see why I would prefer to sell the car on. That way out of all of it, it's only the seller (who let's face is it the only person in the wrong here) who loses out. Hopefully it will teach him a lesson!
I'm sure the credit card company would prefer my route as it doesn't leave them out of pocket especially as they can't seem to get hold of him either so chances of them reclaiming the missing money and expenses back from him are slim.
It's not a greed thing, this really has taken up the last 2-3 months of my life. Caused massive distress, arguments etc with me and my family. The law sucks when it comes to it. You have the rights you just have to fight all unsundry for them but you have to prove beyond doubt wrongdoing before they'll even consider a chargeback. At times I've felt like the guilty party here. All I did was rather naively buy a car for me and my family to last a good few years and a dishonest dealer blatantly sold it knowing it had a massive engine problem and hasn't even been bothered to attempt to resolve the issue! But like I said, chances are, I'll sell the car to recover my losses and he'll catch up with me in a few years time demanding the car/money and the courts will criminalise me!0 -
To update this, my credit card company recovered the amount paid on CC directly from the traders bank. After the second charge back, they presented the evidence to his bank and his bank decided to not take it further as they saw he didn't have a leg to stand on. This was great news for me. After discussing with the person managing my case, I decided to not put an extra claim in for costs etc and the best way for me to recover the remaining amount and costs would be to try and sell the car. Eventually I sold the car on eBay for £6k. Considering the car had effectively cost me £2500, I was happy with that although hire car costs, car finance costs and lost earnings just about amounted to that but for me, the trader himself is the one who lost out financially which was my aim. I didn't want it to come out of the public purse or Visa purse. It's the trader who did wrong here and it hit him directly in the pocket.
The buyer of the car is happy although the engine was a lot more damaged than he'd hoped but he managed to source a reconditioned engine for good money and effectively he got a bargain too.
So all round, it is worth fighting for what you feel is right, it may take the time but ultimately it is worth the effort. Nice to finally close this chapter in my life. Hopefully the trader will really get what he's due one day although I doubt it will come through the authorities.
Amazes me how people can get away with effectively what is fraud for tens of thousands of pounds yet people get banged up for stealing petty amounts!0 -
Good result, do you have a company name you can effectively "name and shame"?Thinking critically since 1996....0
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somethingcorporate wrote: »Good result, do you have a company name you can effectively "name and shame"?
The company was called Winton Cars, based in Chesham in Bucks. However they have since ceased trading but coincidentally all of their stock has moved to a new website and "another" company called Titanium Motors have taken over the site.
Of course when I called them, they denied any knowledge of Winton Cars even though it was the same guy who ran Winton Cars I was speaking to! The joys of sole tradership!
Apparently according to well known sources, there are at least 5 other customers who tried to return high value cars to Winton Cars with similar problems. Not sure how successful they have been but the guy is still trading so clearly Trading Standards etc think he's not breaking any laws and HMRC are clearly happy with his tax paperwork (despite no mention of VAT on my invoice, nor any VAT reg details for either company).0 -
I'd expect a car trader to be over the threshold for VAT, it doesn't take many high value car sales (like 5 or 6) to reach it. Does sound a bit dodgy!
At least you got a good result.Thinking critically since 1996....0 -
somethingcorporate wrote: »I'd expect a car trader to be over the threshold for VAT, it doesn't take many high value car sales (like 5 or 6) to reach it. Does sound a bit dodgy!
At least you got a good result.
You'd think! I know HMRC/VAT/TS have been all over the place but they're still trading so they're obviously very good at what they do! £50,000 sales in the space of 4 weeks in terms of cars returned, I'm pretty sure they would be well over the £73,000 VAT threshold!0 -
Yep, you never know they may be doing it under 4-5 companies all with very similar names and splitting it to avoid registering for VAT.Thinking critically since 1996....0
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