HMRC Form R27 - potential repayment to the estate

nigem

I have done that already! I was so cross with the fine, especially as during one of my costly phone calls I was told to submite a late paper copy and they would note my phone call on the system so this wouldnt happen.

Savvy_Sue

nigem wrote: »

I have now been informed that £100 fine is due as I missed the deadline in Oct.

I am pretty sure this would be a computer generated thing, you'll probably need to write (keeping a copy) to appeal it rather than phoning.

However, I think this whole thread will do better on the Cutting Tax board.

Martin’s asked me to post this in these circumstances: I’ve asked Board Guides to move threads if they’ll receive a better response elsewhere (please see this rule) so this post/thread has been moved to another board, where it should get more replies. If you have any questions about this policy please email forumteam@moneysavingexpert.com.

Mikeyorks

TomsMom wrote: »

I looked again at the R27 and there is the choice to not complete the income part but request a SA and I think I may decide to do this. I'm in as much hurry to do this as they were to answer my call yesterday so I think I may leave it until the P60s start coming in after the end of the tax year, after all it's only 3 months away.

You won't get P60s, I'm afraid, as the income is not current at the 5th April 2012. The best you can achieve is a statement of amounts paid / tax deducted to the date of death. If you do it incrementally .... you should find it relatively easy to piece that together from the initial payslip / Statement most pension etc providers give at the start of the year. And you can usually then proof that back to Bank accounts.

The R27 is fairly easy to complete (hence the absence of Notes other than inboard to the form) - and I'd caution against volunteering to opt for SA. As it isn't the easier option. In my limited experience HMRC don't check the details to the n'th degree ..... one assumes they have a degree of sensitivity. In particular where the values are relatively low.

I'd go for the R27. It really is quite straightforward. Any questions would be answered on here now it's been moved to the right Forum. There's a few of us have, unfortunately, had to complete them.

Savvy_Sue

I have to agree with Mike, I'd only opt for the SA if the deceased was doing them before death.

It took several attempts to get DWP to confirm how much pension had been paid (their first letter only gave details from April to July, whereas Dad had died in December!) and they did include details of his non-taxable AA as well, AND said there was an overpayment of AA due. That wasn't true, as we'd already repaid it.

However, once we'd got the information and submitted the R27, the refund has come fairly promptly, and was definitely worth getting.

dori2o

John_Pierpoint wrote: »

dori2o perhaps this is your opportunity to get noticed by creating a "bereavement" letter to be send to the next of kin of the 2,000 people per working day who die in the UK? It should include a decision tree showing what is needed, depending on the current status of the deceased's tax/benefits account.

I can assure you that these sort of things have been suggested by the majority of us who work on the phones.

Unfortunately, as with the majority of our suggestions there is only 1 response that we are given. That is that there is no funds available to change the current process.

For example, I asked the person in charge Personal taxes a question a few months ago regarding P11d's.

I asked if it was possible to change the P11d to include a tick box that would notify if Medical Insurance benefit, or in fact any benefit other than company cars (which already show an end date if applicable), had ceased during the year that the P11d related to. This would ensure that when the P11d was received and processed the tax code could be updated to remove the benefit if required.

Quite a simple task you might think, just change the PDF that the forms are printed from to include a box that reads. The medical benefit ceased before 5 April ...... etc, etc.

The response I got was that changes to any of the forms HMRC produce would require higher approval as the cost to change the form, even slightly, even just adding a box, can be in excess of £25000 (no I have not mistyped).

This is the problem that arises when things such as the printing of stationary is allowed to be outsourced to private companies, who can then dictate to the government how much it costs for them to update their own forms. There was never this problem when HMSO dealt with all the printing needs for the various government departments in house.

TomsMom

Thanks for moving the thread. I wasn't sure where to put it.

Mikeyorks wrote: »

You won't get P60s, I'm afraid, as the income is not current at the 5th April 2012. The best you can achieve is a statement of amounts paid / tax deducted to the date of death. If you do it incrementally .... you should find it relatively easy to piece that together from the initial payslip / Statement most pension etc providers give at the start of the year. And you can usually then proof that back to Bank accounts.

The R27 is fairly easy to complete (hence the absence of Notes other than inboard to the form) - and I'd caution against volunteering to opt for SA. As it isn't the easier option. In my limited experience HMRC don't check the details to the n'th degree ..... one assumes they have a degree of sensitivity. In particular where the values are relatively low.

I'd go for the R27. It really is quite straightforward. Any questions would be answered on here now it's been moved to the right Forum. There's a few of us have, unfortunately, had to complete them.

Savvy_Sue wrote: »

I have to agree with Mike, I'd only opt for the SA if the deceased was doing them before death.

It took several attempts to get DWP to confirm how much pension had been paid (their first letter only gave details from April to July, whereas Dad had died in December!) and they did include details of his non-taxable AA as well, AND said there was an overpayment of AA due. That wasn't true, as we'd already repaid it.

However, once we'd got the information and submitted the R27, the refund has come fairly promptly, and was definitely worth getting.

I actually posted the R27 back on Saturday with the box ticked opting for a SA form, so too late now.

Savvy Sue OH was doing SAs for the last couple of years or so perhaps I've done the right thing???

Mikeyorks Thanks for letting me know I wont be getting the P60s - I did wonder. I do have payslips for his fire service pension with all the necessary information and I was thinking of writing to the other pension provider and the DWP for details of his income/deductions to date of death for this last financial year. I don't disagree that the R27 is fairly easy to complete but, for someone who has not had to do it before it would be less confusing if it was made clear whether "income" meant gross or net, it wouldn't have been too hard to have put that one extra word on the form when it was designed.

I actually spoke to my brother-in-law about the P161 and the R27. He is a retired accountant, was top of the tree in the largest firm of accountants in the UK and also lectured in it. He too was a little stumped as to the correct answers for some of the questions. Obviously a very intelligent man but again, not having come across this before he was uncertain.

I have a very small personal pension from the Pru which I paid into for many years. At the age of 60 I started to receive my "pension annuity" as the Pru refers to it. The P161 asks for details of all pensions additional to the state pension and there is a choice of ticking a box for "personal pension", *occupational pension", "retirement annuity" and "other". I thought I had paid into and was receiving a "personal pension" but as the Pru call it a "pension annuity" we are both guessing that the box to be ticked is the "retirement annuity" one.

TomsMom

I'm back again with bit of an update and a question.

I've now got all the information needed regarding income to fill in the SA form for my late husband. Just need to sort out interest on savings.

I have received a form SA1002011 "Tax Return 2011" which has been crossed out and 2012 substituted, and the dates crossed out from 6 April 2010 to 5 April 2011 to now read 6 April 2011 to the date of his death. Very professional! I can't believe they don't have any up to date forms :huh: .

I have to assume this is for my husband. It's addressed to me as Mrs W and there is no reference to him at all but the Tax Reference number is definitely his.

There is no return address and no telephone number. The back of the envelope it came in has a return address in Cumbernauld, Glasgow, but I returned the original R27 to Liverpool when I requested a SA firm.

Does anyone have any idea where I should return this form?

I am assuming I can't do it online (previous SAs were done online), and wonder whether it would be a good idea to do it online anyway.

I can't say I'm impressed with HMRC at the moment, they've managed to right royally c0ck up with my tax coding, sending me letters with two different codes for my new coding and sending a different code altogether to my small private pension provider, plus a letter dated 9 February was received two weeks later than a letter dated 29 February! I can't be bothered any more with mine, I'll fill in a SA online at the appropriate time and let them sort it out.

System

TomsMom wrote: »

2) He was in receipt of three benefits, DLA, Incapacity and Industrial Injuries benefit. Are these benefits taxed? If so, how do I know how much tax has been paid?

You said that the Incapacity Benefit has been paid for some years.
If he initially received Invalidity Benefit which changed to Incapacity Benefit in April 1995 then the Incapacity Benefit is not taxable - http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/manuals/eimanual/EIM76100.htm

Mikeyorks

TomsMom wrote: »

There is no return address and no telephone number. The back of the envelope it came in has a return address in Cumbernauld, Glasgow, but I returned the original R27 to Liverpool when I requested a SA firm.

Does anyone have any idea where I should return this form?

Not impressive is it. I trust there's at least a reference (UTR) on the Return.

Send it back to the address at the bottom of this link ;-

http://search2.hmrc.gov.uk/kb5/hmrc/contactus/view.page?record=OILdX1VAnlM

ukmaggie45

TomsMom wrote: »

I'm back again with bit of an update and a question.

HI there TM, Sorry I can't be helpful but just wanted to send my best wishes to you and hopes that things are generally going better than this stuff you posted about.

Seems odd the way they have sent you forms altered by hand. Suggest consider writing to them (send Signed-For) to ask about that? Good luck with it all, I find all this stuff scary, but have a friendly Accountant (he did all my parents' stuff so makes it a bit easier as he knows what was their stuff) so he deals with my tax stuff now. Costs though! But worth it to me as my brain is f****d when it comes to tax law! :eek:

Probate stuff different I think - are you through that yet or is this tied in to that? Just a thought.

Hugs and best wishes and, as ever, "Positive Vibes" from Liverpool