HMRC Form R27 - potential repayment to the estate

TomsMom

Apologies again from me as I never seem to know which board to put these questions on, I figure people on this board might have come across it purely because of age.

I am the executor of my late husband's estate and I have to fill in Form R27. I have just spent 20 minutes hanging on an 0845 number without being connected to a human and at 10p per minute which my provider charges I wasn't willing to waste any more money. Can anyone help me with the following please.

Details of income for this tax year are required from pensions, annuities, benefits, savings interest, etc. There are two boxes "Income" and "Tax Deducted".

1) Does "Income" mean gross or net?

2) He was in receipt of three benefits, DLA, Incapacity and Industrial Injuries benefit. Are these benefits taxed? If so, how do I know how much tax has been paid?

TomsMom

Just bumping up in case there's anyone around who can help. Thanks.

Biggles

1) 'Income' means gross, and you put the tax deducted in the RH column.

2) They aren't taxed - see http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/MoneyTaxAndBenefits/Taxes/TaxOnBenefitsPensionsAndMaintenance/DG_10027059

TomsMom

Thank you Biggles, much appreciated.

It looks as though the Incapacity Benefit isn't taxed for the first 28 weeks, and as he was receiving it for quite a few years then it is taxable. If tax was taken off before he received it then I don't have the gross income to put on the form. Looks like another phone call to an 0845 number, it wouldn't be so bad if you got a human within a reasonable length of time.

John_Pierpoint

I assume that the deceased was of modest means but having tax deducted under PAYE from a pension (most pensioners are in this situation)?
Did the deceased keep tax records so you can know what has been happening for the last 4 or 5 years (while HMRC was in a state of chaos trying to introduce new computer systems ) If the records are available I would recommend double checking them and making sure they dovetail with the latest part year you are now reporting.
What was the date of death? (If it was in the first few of weeks of April you may be wasting your time - my mum died on the 20th April, before her PAYE pension had paid her anything for that month - I completed the form and got back a fiver.).

However if the deceased has slightly more complicated affairs (like my late uncle), so that they have had to do an annual return - insist on submitting a complete normal tax return.
I submitted an R27 and followed it up with 4 letters and 36 hours of pressing "last number redial". Eventually I discovered that it had been processed and not as I supposed the deceased owed £50 quid? No it seems HMRC owed the estate £40 quid. This had been paid into the executors account with a reference that looked like 123/456. I had put a question mark next to it thinking in might be a lost dividend or similar. I never did get a calculation showing how the £40 quid had been calculated.

Meanwhile the self assessment system was sending me monthly statements of tax and increasing penalties for failing to supply a self assessment form for the year of death. There was money lying in that account paid in advance that was not even checked until I got through on the 'phone.

TomsMom

Thank you John.

He was not a pensioner, i.e. not yet 65 and on a state pension. He was receiving a Fire Service ill health pension as he was invalided out after an accident many years ago. He also had little "pots" from other previous employers which were combined to buy an annuity, so these two "pensions" provided income and he was on the state benefits mentioned for the 3.5 years he was ill and unable to work before his death.

He died in October so half way through the tax year. He submitted online Self Assessment forms and I have paperwork from the last couple of years relevant to this.

I have googled and not found any guidelines for completing the R27 but I have found quite a lot of information (some of which were your replies on other threads) which mention doing a SA form.

I looked again at the R27 and there is the choice to not complete the income part but request a SA and I think I may decide to do this. I'm in as much hurry to do this as they were to answer my call yesterday so I think I may leave it until the P60s start coming in after the end of the tax year, after all it's only 3 months away. I am not in dire need of whatever HMRC decide I may be entitled to as a refund as his pensions have passed on to me and I also receive state pension.

I have also received a P161(W) to reassess my tax coding. Again I will delay submitting this as I have yet to start receiving the annuity (it could not be released to me until probate had been granted, this has now been done so I expect to start being paid very soon) and I also do not yet know the exact figure for the Fire Service pension as it drops to half rate after 13 weeks and we haven't reached that time yet.

I'm quite appalled that at times like this, when people are dealing with grief, that these forms are not particularly clear (eg. it could state "gross income" instead of just "income") and that guidance notes are not included, my brain has been scrambled enough these last few months coping with impending death of my husband, the funeral and sorting out probate, pensions etc. Also, as you are invited to ring them with any queries you then find it's an 0845 number, which not everyone has included in their call plans, and you are expected to wait for lord knows how long listening to someone telling you an advisor will be with you shortly! I think it would be much fairer to everyone if geographical numbers were used, but that's another discussion!

agrinnall

I'm inclined to agree with you, I hadn't looked at the form previously (the solicitor completed it after my dad died using figures that I collated) but it could be more helpful. I also couldn't find anything else on the HMRC website to help complete it.

John_Pierpoint

TomsMom wrote: »

Thank you John.

He was not a pensioner, i.e. not yet 65 and on a state pension. He was receiving a Fire Service ill health pension as he was invalided out after an accident many years ago. He also had little "pots" from other previous employers which were combined to buy an annuity, so these two "pensions" provided income and he was on the state benefits mentioned for the 3.5 years he was ill and unable to work before his death.

He died in October so half way through the tax year. He submitted on-line Self Assessment forms and I have paperwork from the last couple of years relevant to this.

I have googled and not found any guidelines for completing the R27 but I have found quite a lot of information (some of which were your replies on other threads) which mention doing a SA form.

I looked again at the R27 and there is the choice to not complete the income part but request a SA and I think I may decide to do this. I'm in as much hurry to do this as they were to answer my call yesterday so I think I may leave it until the P60s start coming in after the end of the tax year, after all it's only 3 months away. I am not in dire need of whatever HMRC decide I may be entitled to as a refund as his pensions have passed on to me and I also receive state pension.

I have also received a P161(W) to reassess my tax coding. Again I will delay submitting this as I have yet to start receiving the annuity (it could not be released to me until probate had been granted, this has now been done so I expect to start being paid very soon) and I also do not yet know the exact figure for the Fire Service pension as it drops to half rate after 13 weeks and we haven't reached that time yet.

I'm quite appalled that at times like this, when people are dealing with grief, that these forms are not particularly clear (eg. it could state "gross income" instead of just "income") and that guidance notes are not included, my brain has been scrambled enough these last few months coping with impending death of my husband, the funeral and sorting out probate, pensions etc. Also, as you are invited to ring them with any queries you then find it's an 0845 number, which not everyone has included in their call plans, and you are expected to wait for lord knows how long listening to someone telling you an advisor will be with you shortly! I think it would be much fairer to everyone if geographical numbers were used, but that's another discussion!

Good decision in my opinion.

Sorry to hear about your loss - my father died of a heart attack in his 50's so I know something of what it is like when those in the family have to "leave early".

When uncle died, while I was on my summer holiday, it obviously took longer than 31st October in which to complete the self assessment up to the previous 5th April.
So I was told by an HMRC clerk to submit the figures through the on-line system.
THAT WAS AGAINST THE RULES for an executor and as far as I know probably still is.

So I sent in the paper return and went through the mill of being fined, appealing etc. etc. [If you need a blank copy of the forms there is a helpline to Cardiff (free with priority if you call from your local tax advice office if you still have one - in my case it is one woman with a "white" telephone in a booth beside her desk for use by [STRIKE]punters [/STRIKE] taxpayers/benefit claimants)]

For the last 5 months of Uncle's tax life, I thought the R27 was a simple alternative as by then I had all the figures up to the date of death.

Silly me.

Perhaps I was just unlucky and now the new nobody-is-responsible-the-computer-makes-the-decisions centralised system has settled down and someone has written the bereavement plug in software and trained the "advisers" on how to use it? ..

Good luck.

Errata

So I was told by an HMRC clerk to submit the figures through the on-line system.
THAT WAS AGAINST THE RULES for an executor and as far as I know probably still is.

Guessing here. Against the rules because the ID codes/username/password are for the deceased's use and nobody else.

John_Pierpoint

Dear old uncle had been muddling through with a pencil and a rubber, and as it turned out getting deeper into a muddle as the system had been trying "to code out" his under paid tax against his PAYE pension - all £1,000 of it - there is only so far you can go with a "K" code.
[For those of you in a similar situation and not understanding my terminology, as I did not back then - let Google be your friend]

So when I applied for on-line access (as instructed by HMRC) perhaps it was my email address that gave away the status of the tax payer and not a joined-up-government initiative. Anyway as an exception to the general rule that HMRC don't communicate by email, I got back a two page email with all the reasons for not issuing an access code - never did manage no work out which bit of legalese applied to me - but I have since found "professional" executors moaning about the situation on the web - they probably don't like R27's either.

dori2o

John_Pierpoint wrote: »

Good decision in my opinion.

Sorry to hear about your loss - my father died of a heart attack in his 50's so I know something of what it is like when those in the family have to "leave early".

When uncle died, while I was on my summer holiday, it obviously took longer than 31st October in which to complete the self assessment up to the previous 5th April.
So I was told by an HMRC clerk to submit the figures through the on-line system.
THAT WAS AGAINST THE RULES for an executor and as far as I know probably still is.

So I sent in the paper return and went through the mill of being fined, appealing etc. etc. [If you need a blank copy of the forms there is a helpline to Cardiff (free with priority if you call from your local tax advice office if you still have one - in my case it is one woman with a "white" telephone in a booth beside her desk for use by [STRIKE]punters [/STRIKE] taxpayers/benefit claimants)]

For the last 5 months of Uncle's tax life, I thought the R27 was a simple alternative as by then I had all the figures up to the date of death.

Silly me.

Perhaps I was just unlucky and now the new nobody-is-responsible-the-computer-makes-the-decisions centralised system has settled down and someone has written the bereavement plug in software and trained the "advisers" on how to use it? ..

Good luck.

As long as you are recorded on the record as the executor/Personal rep, then you can arrange for the online system to be set up with the executors/PR details. In order to do this the R27, which includes a space for the Exec/PR details to be notified, should be submitted.