Continuous Insurance Enforcement

Wig

OP

WHAT DOES THE FIRST LETTER SAY?

What does the second letter say....is it actually a fine or another warning of a fine? What the fine amount and reason for the fine......
When you put your registration into vehicle enquiry.... what does it say?


When this is answered advice can be given.

paddedjohn

Next time you scrap a car, take it to a registered scrappy and ensure you get a cert of destruction, if you had done this with this car you probably wouldnt have had this problem now.

z3phyr04

Wig wrote: »

OP

WHAT DOES THE FIRST LETTER SAY?

What does the second letter say....is it actually a fine or another warning of a fine? What the fine amount and reason for the fine......
When you put your registration into vehicle enquiry.... what does it say?


When this is answered advice can be given.

I will have to dig out the first letter from my file, but it was the initial warning to say that the vehicle was not showing as insured on the MID.

The second letter reads:

FIXED PENALTY NOTICE - FAILURE TO INSURE

The Motor Insurance Database tells us that this vehicle was not insured on 10/01/12. This is an offence for which you, as the registered keeper, may be prosecuted. To avoid this you must now pay a penalty.

TO AVOID PROSECUTION YOU MUST DO THE FOLLOWING
* Pay a penalty of £100 by 18/02/12, if you pay by 11/02/12 this will be reduced to £50, and
* Insure your vehicle immediately or take your vehicle off the road.

HOW TO PAY SECTION

WHAT WILL HAPPEN IF YOU DO NOTHING
* If you don't pay the penalty we may prosecute you and if convicted the fine will be up to £1,000
* Your vehicle may get wheelclamped and impounded by DVLA, and
* if you don't get insurance, the Police may also seize your vehicle on the road.

paddedjohn wrote: »

Next time you scrap a car, take it to a registered scrappy and ensure you get a cert of destruction, if you had done this with this car you probably wouldnt have had this problem now.

It was taken to an authorised treatment facility but they advised me to fill out the V5 to notify the DVLA of it's scrappage. When I recieved the initial warning I contacted them to get a letter to confirm the date they received the car and that it was scrapped so that I would have further evidence to prove it was no longer on the roads.

Trebor16

paddedjohn wrote: »

Next time you scrap a car, take it to a registered scrappy and ensure you get a cert of destruction, if you had done this with this car you probably wouldnt have had this problem now.

With the new style V5's there is no option to show you have scrapped your vehicle personally, so taking the vehicle to a scrappy will be the only way of doing that now.An alternative is to dismantle the car and SORN it.

TrickyWicky

paddedjohn wrote: »

Next time you scrap a car, take it to a registered scrappy and ensure you get a cert of destruction, if you had done this with this car you probably wouldnt have had this problem now.

Ditto.

z3phyr04: The DVLA no longer allow you to tick the scrapped box to declare that you've broken up the vehicle yourself. This is probably why they've ignored you and now sent you threatening letters etc.

They say the only thing you can do is to continue to SORN the vehicle for life (which in itself basically says you must lie to the state - I'm sure there will be further implications for this) or take it to an ATF - Authorised Treatment Facility which will electronically register the vehicle as being dismantled. In your case you're in a catch 22 - You've sent the V5, they've let the black hole swallow it and without it, you can't even declare sorn online as you've no document reference number

Only thing you can do now is to point out the interpretation act and also see this link:
http://www.volkszone.com/VZi/showthread.php?t=631542&highlight=dvla

If it ever goes to court you'll have to plead that the DVLA are unwilling to accept the vehicle has gone and are forcing you to lie to the state and even to a court that the vehicle is SORN and that you can't even do that because they've not returned the V5 to you ensuring your entrapment for a prosecution.

Wig

Wig wrote: »

When you put your registration into vehicle enquiry.... what does it say?

And the answer to this bit?

Initially my reaction is to say as they have not sent you any "fine" of £80/£40 for not SORNing not taxing we can only assume they did receive the V5 and have actioned the tranfer to a motor trader. However they seem to have done half a job because the car is clearly still registered in your name. (still awaiting your reply to vehicle enquiry)

So you have to write them a letter telling them what happened and tell them -whatever the condition of the vehicle whether it still exists or not- that you have no interest in the vehicle any longer as of XX/XX/2011 the date you scrapped it. and ask for their confirmation of such..... when you have this, either the fine will be cancelled or you can tell the fines people where they can shove it.

z3phyr04

Wig wrote: »

And the answer to this bit?

Initially my reaction is to say as they have not sent you any "fine" of £80/£40 for not SORNing not taxing we can only assume they did receive the V5 and have actioned the tranfer to a motor trader. However they seem to have done half a job because the car is clearly still registered in your name. (still awaiting your reply to vehicle enquiry)

So you have to write them a letter telling them what happened and tell them -whatever the condition of the vehicle whether it still exists or not- that you have no interest in the vehicle any longer as of XX/XX/2011 the date you scrapped it. and ask for their confirmation of such..... when you have this, either the fine will be cancelled or you can tell the fines people where they can shove it.

Sorry for the late reply, I had a bereavement in my close family so have not been able to deal with this recently. This is my next problem, as the vehicle was scrapped I did not SORN as this would have not been truthful. I just checked and it appears the license is due to expire at the beginning of the month.

Date of Liability 01 02 2012
Date of First Registration 01 09 2000
Year of Manufacture 2000
Cylinder Capacity (cc) 1348cc
CO2 Emissions Not Available
Fuel Type PETROL
Export Marker N
Vehicle Status Licence Due to Expire
Vehicle Colour BLUE
Vehicle Type Approval Not Available
This vehicle can be licensed at a DVLA Local Office without the V5C Registration Certificate

It seems that they still haven't updated their systems again so my next issue is going to be tax fines? :eek:

Do I send the letter you suggested I now write in regards to the fine to the Swansea address or the address the letter notifying me of my 'fine' came from?

TrickyWicky wrote: »

Ditto.

z3phyr04: The DVLA no longer allow you to tick the scrapped box to declare that you've broken up the vehicle yourself. This is probably why they've ignored you and now sent you threatening letters etc.

They say the only thing you can do is to continue to SORN the vehicle for life (which in itself basically says you must lie to the state - I'm sure there will be further implications for this) or take it to an ATF - Authorised Treatment Facility which will electronically register the vehicle as being dismantled. In your case you're in a catch 22 - You've sent the V5, they've let the black hole swallow it and without it, you can't even declare sorn online as you've no document reference number

Only thing you can do now is to point out the interpretation act and also see this link:
http://www.volkszone.com/VZi/showthread.php?t=631542&highlight=dvla

If it ever goes to court you'll have to plead that the DVLA are unwilling to accept the vehicle has gone and are forcing you to lie to the state and even to a court that the vehicle is SORN and that you can't even do that because they've not returned the V5 to you ensuring your entrapment for a prosecution.

This makes it sound like it could be a long, ridiculous fight to get them to accept it isn't on the road. Great.

Joe_Horner

Yes, it can be a long fight, but you can make it a little easier for yourself by sticking to established steps and not allowing them to drag it out into an argument.

The first thing you need to do is write, preferably recorded delivery, clearly explaining that you sent the vehicle for scrap giving the date you did so and details of the scrapyard, and also that the V5 was returned to them notifying them that you were no longer the keeper of that vehicle from that date, again giving the date you sent it. Add a statement to the effect that:

"Section 7 of The Interpretation Act 1978 establishes that, by posting the V5 notification to you using pre-paid post, I fully discharged my obligations under S22 of the Road Vehicles (Registration and licensing) Regulations 2002 in respect of the vehicle unless you can prove non-delivery to the satisfaction of a Court."

Wait for them to write back saying "Don't care, pay up".

Write back asking them to review their decision because you "Do not accept that I had any legal obligation in respect of the vehicle once I had discharged my RV(RL)R obligation as explained in my last letter".

Wait for them to say "Don't care, pay up"

Write to them stating that you do not accept that the alleged penalty is due and will not pay until such time as they prove liability in Court.

Wait for them to set a debt collector on to you.

Write to the Debt Collector explaining that the alleged debt is in dispute and they are obliged to return it to the DVLA for resolution. Also write to the DVLA explaining that you have made it clear you won't pay unless they can prove the debt in Court and that you will consider any further attempts to make you pay, without a Court Order, to be harassment.

Wait for them to say "see you in Court".

Then either:

(a) Wait to receive a summons. Your defence is pretty well established - ie: you sent the V5, that's all that you legally had to do , DVLA admin is known to be !!!! poor and they lose these things all the time so there's no way they can prove they didn't receive it.

(b) - far more likely - Wait to receive a summons.... wait to receive a summons.... wait to receive a summons.... about a year later realise that there's no way you're receiving a summons.




Note that, if it does go to Court, telling the Court you posted it (in a sworn statement) is as good as a Recorded Delivery receipt because for DVLA to challenge that they'd have to accuse you of perjury. Which is ever so slightly libelous seeing as they can't possibly offer proof that you didn't!

z3phyr04

Joe_Horner wrote: »

Yes, it can be a long fight, but you can make it a little easier for yourself by sticking to established steps and not allowing them to drag it out into an argument.

The first thing you need to do is write, preferably recorded delivery, clearly explaining that you sent the vehicle for scrap giving the date you did so and details of the scrapyard, and also that the V5 was returned to them notifying them that you were no longer the keeper of that vehicle from that date, again giving the date you sent it. Add a statement to the effect that:

"Section 7 of The Interpretation Act 1978 establishes that, by posting the V5 notification to you using pre-paid post, I fully discharged my obligations under S22 of the Road Vehicles (Registration and licensing) Regulations 2002 in respect of the vehicle unless you can prove non-delivery to the satisfaction of a Court."

Wait for them to write back saying "Don't care, pay up".

Write back asking them to review their decision because you "Do not accept that I had any legal obligation in respect of the vehicle once I had discharged my RV(RL)R obligation as explained in my last letter".

Wait for them to say "Don't care, pay up"

Write to them stating that you do not accept that the alleged penalty is due and will not pay until such time as they prove liability in Court.

Wait for them to set a debt collector on to you.

Write to the Debt Collector explaining that the alleged debt is in dispute and they are obliged to return it to the DVLA for resolution. Also write to the DVLA explaining that you have made it clear you won't pay unless they can prove the debt in Court and that you will consider any further attempts to make you pay, without a Court Order, to be harassment.

Wait for them to say "see you in Court".

Then either:

(a) Wait to receive a summons. Your defence is pretty well established - ie: you sent the V5, that's all that you legally had to do , DVLA admin is known to be !!!! poor and they lose these things all the time so there's no way they can prove they didn't receive it.

(b) - far more likely - Wait to receive a summons.... wait to receive a summons.... wait to receive a summons.... about a year later realise that there's no way you're receiving a summons.




Note that, if it does go to Court, telling the Court you posted it (in a sworn statement) is as good as a Recorded Delivery receipt because for DVLA to challenge that they'd have to accuse you of perjury. Which is ever so slightly libelous seeing as they can't possibly offer proof that you didn't!

Thanks, for reference this is a copy of the last letter I sent to them on 9th January (I sent this one recorded as I had by this time realised there seemed to be a black hole in Swansea).

[FONT=&quot]DVLA[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Swansea[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]SA99 1BD[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]REF: **** ***[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Dear Sirs[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]I am writing to confirm that I am no longer the keeper for the referenced vehicle. The vehicle has been scrapped by a treatment facility whose details I have listed below. I previously sent the V5C notifying this change to the DVLA but it appears this has not been received, hence this confirmation letter.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Vehicle Details[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Registration: **** ***[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Make: [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Model: [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Colour: Blue[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Treatment Facility Details[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Date Scrapped: 09/08/2011[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Company Name: ** Auto Salvage[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]I trust this letter provides all the required information.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Yours Faithfully,[/FONT]

I will follow this letter up with what you have suggested and hopefully get it in the post tomorrow.

Joe_Horner

That's just about perfect - courteous, clear, covers everything (at this stage), and concise.

It's very easy indeed to end up writing more than needed to try and make it "look" better but it doesn't work! Far better to stick to short, simple, statements of the facts, and of your position, rather than waffling on trying to make it look impressive!