Inland Revenue demand for £8997

BoGoF

WhiteHorse wrote: »

Your faith in the government is touching.

No my knowledge of how late in the day people leave filing their tax returns is first hand.

Gas_Powered_Toothbrush

WhiteHorse wrote: »

Always demand that they show their workings. Very often they can't, either because the file is in a mess, or because they simply made the figure up.

A self-employed tradesman of my acquaintance was told that he owed £8000. He refused to pay and demanded that they prove their case.

They responded by setting debt collectors on him. That led to a violent scene on the doorstep and his wife and children being terrorised by thugs. They didn't get anything however.

A few days letter he got a letter stating that he had actually overpaid by £2000.

This didn't happen.

WhiteHorse

Gas_Powered_Toothbrush wrote: »

This didn't happen.

How would you know?

Gas_Powered_Toothbrush

WhiteHorse wrote: »

How would you know?

Experience.

chrismac1

White Horse, you'll find there a number of HMRC posters on here. Now let's be fair, they would not be on here in the first place unless they were within the better part of that workforce, many of whom just want to put the hours in. Having said that, they suffer from myopia in the sense that criticisms of HMRC are all seen as exaggerated, made up, and so forth - notwithstanding that these sorts of posts are a long way from being unique to this site but are merely the tip of the iceberg online, never mind the cases which are never posted anywhere.

In fact it was these sorts of posts two years ago that first got me posting on this forum at all. I wanted to let the "victim" know that there were plenty of weapons to fight the dead hand of HMRC with, that they did not have to accept the argument that "this is not in our procedures, so just give up and pay the tax." I've been dealing with HMRC since 1990, it's never been in a worse mess than it is now. That's a personal view, but also the general view of anyone who has had that length of time dealing with HMRC. They've lost sight of basic professional standards in the merger, upheaval, botched systems implementations and all the rest. There is no reason to be a victim of this stuff, in fact it can be an opportunity. I've got several clients where they seem to have totally "gone to sleep" on £5k, £10k of perfectly collectable tax if they were well organised.

Gas_Powered_Toothbrush

chrismac1 wrote: »

I've been dealing with HMRC since 1990

Dealing with a department 15 years before it was formed? Truly, you are a man of many talents.

chrismac1 wrote: »

I've got several clients where they seem to have totally "gone to sleep" on £5k, £10k of perfectly collectable tax if they were well organised.

Please elaborate, since from the way you've phrased that it seems like you're admitting to facilitating tax evasion.

dori2o

chrismac1 wrote: »

"I've asked the Newcastle Office if I can submit one. It's taken 5 letters and 4 phone calls and I still don't have an answer."

In these cases I never ask HMRC for their advice. Often as you've found they are simply too rubbish. Even when you get it - unlike advice given by me to clients, for example - you have no redress if it turns out to be incorrect. In this case I would file the return, make them a written offer and then the ball is firmly in their court. I always want my clients to be taking the fight to these guys, not sitting back being driven around by the latest daft decision by some jobsworth in a random tax office.

Do you ever post factual information on this site.

The 2003-04 return is at least 3 years out of time, even if it is submitted now HMRC DO NOT have to accept it.

Therefore they DO NOT in these cases have to reverse the determinations if the tax return shows no tax is actually due.

Just like the letter the OP has written making a formal offer to clear the balance with a settlement instead of the full balance, they DO NOT have to accept it.

As for requesting full documented calculations, for a determination there isn't one, but the law allows HMRC to charge an estimate based on trade. This will then be subject to the same charges a calculated charge will be subject to, i.e. upto 2 surcharges at 5% each, plus interest, plus late payment penalties and related interest on those.

Instead of posting your constant drivel regarding your fantasy dealings with HMRC. If you really are an accountant, then act like one and provide some actual help to the people posting on this forum.

By all means tell them to write and object to the charge, but don't make out it is a 100% certainty that they will get away with something that has arisen purely out of their own doing.

A good accountant would give the client the whole picture, then again you certainly don't fall into this category.

Pennywise

dori2o wrote: »

The 2003-04 return is at least 3 years out of time, even if it is submitted now HMRC DO NOT have to accept it.

Therefore they DO NOT in these cases have to reverse the determinations if the tax return shows no tax is actually due.

Just like the letter the OP has written making a formal offer to clear the balance with a settlement instead of the full balance, they DO NOT have to accept it.

Luckily (or morally right), HMRC do have a procedure for dealing with this kind of thing, previously a concession called "equitable liability" and now replaced by statute

http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/manuals/sacmanual/sacm12210.htm

So basically, if you can prove that your actual liability is less than the determination, and you can bring your tax affairs fully up to date, then the determination can be replaced by the actual liability and the resultant fines, penalties, surcharges and interest will be reduced/eliminated accordingly.

Whilst the average call centre jobsworth won't be able/willing to replace your determination notice with the actual liability, almost certainly, it will be replaced if you write in with full details and your outstanding tax return(s) - you may get knocked back the first letter, but persevere with follow ups and ultimately seriously consider an appeal to the tribunals as they've shown themselves to be "fair" and have even overturned perfectly "legal" penalties if the circumstances show that it wouldn't be fair not to do so.

Certainly don't just accept that you have to pay this as some HMRC employees would like you to believe.

BoGoF

Indeed Pennywise, the advice for the OP should have been make a claim to Special Relief not the ridiculous advice of "make an offer of £500".

However I would say it's not as cut and dry as here's my returns, my liability is less than the determination.....job done.

There are various other conditions that must be met. All claims are considered by HMRC's Enforcement and Insolvency section. The only way, as I understand it, to challenge Special Relief refusal is via Judicial Review......a costly process if you lose.

MartyBoy

Update 28.01.12.

So I've received a letter this morning rejecting my offer. The letter makes no sense at all and reminds me that 47p per day in interest is being added. I have exactly copied the entire letter (in full) below.

What do I do? Do I clear the judgement debt? I didn't even know that they had issued a CCJ against me - it is certainly not appearing on either Experian or Equifax records.

Needless to say, I don't have £9093.75 in cash lying around.


Dear Mr Gould

RE; Amount due £9093.75 (£3669.95 Judgment debt £5423.80 non judgment debt)

Thank you for your letter dated 12 January 2012 regarding your outstanding determination for 2003 - 2004 and your offer of payment for the 2003 - 2004 element of your debt.

I have enclosed a statement of liabilities showing how your total debt for year ending 5 April 2004 to 5 April 2009 has been calculated.

I am unable to consider your composition offer for one element of the debt while the majority of the debt remains outstanding.

Please make immediate payment in full for the balance of the debt.

If you are unable to do so, please submit your payment proposals.

If I do not hear from you by 13 February 2012 I will consider taking further recovery action against your for the total amount of the judgement debt.

Interest continues to be added to amounts paid late.