Confusion over speeding charge

cpu

Opinions about this situation please?

17 year old was stopped for speeding in a built up area around midnight. He was stopped by a Police van (the type that tends to be in service when they expect trouble from fighting drunks at pub chuck out time etc).

He got a bit of a fright when he was stopped and is a bit vague in his understanding about what exactly happened.

He admitted to the Police he was speeding and told them he thought he was doing around 40/45 mph (in a 30 area). His back seat 'mate' (who doesn't drive btw) blurted out 'you were doing more than that it was definately over 50. :rolleyes: The front seat passenger said he had no idea what speed they were doing.

He says the Police did not tell him what speed he was actually doing (they only asked him) but they said he was going to be charged with dangerous & reckless driving and it would be referred to court.

Now all this happened 2 and a half months ago and he still hasn't heard anything. I have various queries about this -

If he was genuinely charged, would he have received some sort of ticket or form at time of being charged?

He has been told by others that the Police van he was stopped by, does not have a speed detector and therefore it cannot go any further. I would have thought the Police would be able to back up their speed accusation and if they have charged him, they must have proof?

Do they have to read him his rights for a speeding offence? (Sorry for the basic, I live a quiet life me :rolleyes: )

Is this a normal time limit to wait for a letter from the court?

I'm beginning to wonder if they have said something like 'you could be charged with dangerous or reckless driving', instead of 'you are charged with etc etc'. Is it feasible that they have gone through the motions in order to give him a scare and get him to cut down on his speed in future but haven't actually legally charged him but let him think he has been?

He doesn't want to phone the Police station in case he wakes up a sleeping dog.

He knows how flaming stupid he's been so please, posts about damning speeding 17 year olds to Hell will not help with my query. If you have any pertinent thoughts, I'd be glad to hear them as this situation is puzzling me a bit.

Hintza

hard for them to prove speeding without the correct equipment which obviously they didn't have. That is why if they went for any charge it would probably be reckless.

However I suspect in this case they have just tried to give him a fright and i suspect nothing will come of it. Yo will be charged and you have been charged are two different statements.

Did he have to produce his documents at police station?

Whatever happens do nothing and I think it will go away.

I am sure someone will be along who will know all the correct proocedures but I doubt they followede them, that is why I think they have just been out to warn.

However, they will remember and if he is seen again they will come down on him like a ton of bricks.

Happychappy

Hi

The van you refer to would be a standard divisional carrier type such as the Vauxhall Movano or Mercedes Sprinter, most stations have one and contrary to popular pub belief, they are crewed by ordinary officers and not the Riot Squad which also does not exist.

Generally these vehicles do not have a calibrated speedometer due to the costs involved and the role of the vehicle, however the officers can still carry out a following speed check, but the integrity of the speedometer, etc is called into question and the police would need to carry out further checks as to its reliability etc, not normally doen but has been in the past and successfully..

Did you son produce all his documents at the time or was he issued a form HORT1 to produce his documents at a police station? The officer would have said him to him words to the effect of "The speed of your vehicle is restricted to X mph, I have just checked it by means of a following check at Xmph and then cautioned him with the standard caution of
"You are not obliged to say anything etc, etc.

His reply would have been noted, but not that of any passengers as they bare no relevance. The officer would have then given your son a Verbal notice of intended prosecution starting with
"You will be reported for consideration of the question of prosecuting you for? either exceeding the speed limit or dangerous driving etc, etc, depending upon what the officer was considering.

There would be no written correspondence given to your son if his documents were in order and to honest all your sons insurance details, driving licence details, VEL and MOT details are registered on the PNC (Police national computer) and available to the officer at the time of the check.

The next process is the issue of a summons which can take up to 6 months and must be issued within that timescale. Speed is not on its own is not usually sufficent enough to warrant a dangerous driving offence, there is normally some other factor serious enough for the officer to consider a dangerous driving offence.

The most important factor I find is whether the driver passed the "Attitude test" this has a major bearing on the outcome.

If the officer really has enough work on and really does not feel he/she has the time to write up a speeding/dangerous driving offence and the driver was sufficiently contrite, I am aware :rolleyes: that officers do report drivers, i.e tell them they are to be reported and leave them to sweat which concentrates the mind sufficently enough for the individual to "mend their ways" and then file? any thoughts of prosecuting.

I really would sit tight and sweat it out, I personally would be suprised if the Police vehicle had a calibrated speedometer and therefore that is why the officer mentioned dangerous driving as he knew he would have more difficulty proving the speed offence but this is still possible and has been done many times to check the speedometer and work out the error etc, but normally due to someone failing the all important "Attitude Test" hope that helps slightly

cpu

Hintza wrote:

You will be charged and you have been charged are two different statements.

Did he have to produce his documents at police station?

Just to clarify....I was only wondering if that was what was said, I don't actually know exactly what they said to him and he can't remember.

As far as I know, he had his licence on him and showed that, but nothing else and has not been asked to show any other documents at station.

DealDrivers_company_representative

I may be corrected by others with more knowledge but my guess is the van had more pressing duties to attend to that night, and he'd have been asked to produce identification, his licence and proof of insurance at a station shortly after the event if they had filled in a charge form against him, so that they could check his legal driving situation and then take all charges forward as appropriate.

If they were'nt able to measure his speed they cannot bring a speeding charge, but evidence (from uniformed officers in the van) of reckless road behaviour is a different charge to speeding.

They clearly weren't concerned enough to breathalyse him (unless you missed that bit out).

I suspect they have done their job and given him the appropriate 'fright' which he'll not forget, and he may be well advised to pick some different 'mates'.. or avoid driving around at midnight in pub & club areas, where he's bound to attract police attention as a very young driver not even old enough to drink....bless him, hopefully he's learned a bit of wisdom from this!

cpu

Happychappy wrote:

The officer would have said him to him words to the effect of "he speed of your vehicle is restricted to X mph, I have just checked it by means of a following check at Xmph and then cautioned him with the standard caution of "You are not obliged to say anything etc, etc.

His reply would have been noted, but not that of any passengers as they bare no relevance. The officer would have then given your son a Verbal notice of intended prosecution starting with "You will be reported for consideration of the question of prosecuting you for? either exceeding the speed limit or dangerous driving etc, etc, depending upon what the officer was considering.

The most important factor I find is whether the driver passed the "Attitude test" this has a major bearing on the outcome.

I forgot to add, the passenger's details were taken and they were visited at home and a statement was taken from both of them although the lad himself hasn't had any more contact. (It's not actually my son, but is a lad who's Dad went walkabout years ago and he comes to me when he can't talk to his Mum).

I've been told by someone that if the speed is around twice the limit, then it is more or less an automatic jump to a dangerous/reckless charge.

Edited to reply to DealDrivers....no, he wasn't breathalysed.

Happychappy

Sorry, you didnt say the police had obviously progressed the enquiry.

Clearly the offence of dangerous driving is being considered and not the speeding offence on it's own. With motoring offences the police do not charge, they report for summons, the only time an offence is charged is following an arrest such as a drink driver, failing to stop and involved in an rtc. The driver would be arrested, and then usually charged and bailed if the evidence was already sufficient, if further evidence required they would bail back until evidence would be ready such as sending off forensic samples etc. They can also report for summons for more minor offences and release without bail.

The evidence of the police officers regarding his driving would normally be enough, however, obviously something more was said by the lads "friends" to make the officers believe further evidence could be obtained from them to support the offence? Like "I thought we were going to die"

Clearly something far more then simple speeding? has taken place and speed in itself does not support an offence of dangerous driving. There is a myhth of 100 mph + on a motorway and you win a bike, sorry get a ban It isnt that simple and there is no guidelines supporting a certain speed = dangerous.

I think you need to sit with the lad and have a heart to heart as something clearly does not add up? I would also seek legal advice at an early stage, however, the talk with matey is pretty uppermost because I doubt this one will go away?

The police have 6 months from being aware of the offence to lay information, i.e. issue a summons, so watch the calendar unfortunately and speak to his friends? I do admire what your doing as 17 really is no age to be driving a car and clearly the lad has noone to kick his backside and try to help him realise how dangerous cars are in young hands, I have 25 years experience of picking up the pieces so do have a rough understanding.

cpu

Happychappy wrote:

The evidence of the police officers regarding his driving would normally be enough, however, obviously something more was said by the lads "friends" to make the officers believe further evidence could be obtained from them to support the offence? Like "I thought we were going to die"

Front passenger said nothing apart from 'I have no idea what speed we were doing' and back seat passenger was scared to go back on what he'd said at the time so again said the lad was doing at least 50mph. To be fair, they were all pretty nervous at the time of getting stopped and the back seat passenger just blurted it out without thinking. He then couldn't really say anything else different when the Police called to visit.

Clearly something far more then simple speeding? has taken place and speed in itself does not support an offence of dangerous driving. There is a myhth of 100 mph + on a motorway and you win a bike, sorry get a ban It isnt that simple and there is no guidelines supporting a certain speed = dangerous.

I think you need to sit with the lad and have a heart to heart as something clearly does not add up? I would also seek legal advice at an early stage, however, the talk with matey is pretty uppermost because I doubt this one will go away?

The police have 6 months from being aware of the offence to lay information, i.e. issue a summons, so watch the calendar unfortunately and speak to his friends? I do admire what your doing as 17 really is no age to be driving a car and clearly the lad has noone to kick his backside and try to help him realise how dangerous cars are in young hands, I have 25 years experience of picking up the pieces so do have a rough understanding.

Legal advice? I had assumed he would be given a court date (if it was to progress) and he would turn up admit his crime and apologise and take what was thrown at him. Why might he need legal advice? Is this more serious than I was expecting?

Also, if this does end up in court and the date set is for when he is supposed to be away on a long planned and very expensive holiday that was booked ages ago, can he request the date be changed? Would the court do that?

Thanks very much for all your help btw.

Happychappy

If you take legal advice, you would see exactly what evidence the police have, there is a system of disclosure where the police would disclose their case to the defence. The police will send your solicitor a copy of the witness statments and this hopefully will refresh the lads memory, or show any possible "confusion" by his rear seat passenger.

It may be the case that something has been overlooked or there is a possibility of a lesser offence being more appropriate i.e. Due care and attention or reasonable consideration rather then dangerous driving as this offence will have a marked effect on any job prospects or car insurance for many years to come.

The term plea bargaining is used and may be considered in order to save court time and costs, the CPS are not adverse to it, however, this is a legal issue and needs to be handled by a solicitor who has a good working knowledge of criminal or motoring law, not your barrack room lawyer, or pub bar propper upper :rolleyes:

The offence of dangerous driving is very serious, and I would urge him to seek legal advice now in order to let the police know the case is being reviewed and defended by a legal professional rather then a young kid who clearly has made a mistake and may not do the things an older and wiser person would do, and may just go along with the flow, and not realise he is coming to a huge waterfall?

Regarding the holiday date, yes the court would take notice of written evidence of a pre booked holiday and reschedule. This must be done through the Court Clerk and at the first opportunity should he receive a date for summons. That is why now is the time to seek legal advice so that you are not suddenly aware of the court date and havent pre warned a solicitor?
The Citizens advice will have a list of solicitors and the first half hour I beleive is still free, so I would take it up.

DavidHM

If he's reported for driving without due care and attention, the information must be laid before the Magistrates within six months of the offence. If it's dangerous driving then it's an "either way" offence, i.e., he can be tried before a jury at the Crown Court or before the Magistrates, and if that happens then the six-month time limit does not apply although it is unlikely that it would take much longer for a summons to be issued.

http://www.cps.gov.uk/legal/section9/chapter_b.html#13 sets out the CPS charging guidelines for dangerous driving (and read on for driving without due care). Whilst dangerous driving is a possibility, it seems more likely that a due care charge will be brought because it is easier to prove.

In either case, if summosned, he will be looking at 6+ points and as a new driver, that means that his driving licence will be revoked. The fourteen-day obligation to serve a Notice of Intended Prosecution (NIP) will have been met by the officer informing him at the scene that he will be reported for consideration of prosecution. Until the decision has been made as to whether to prosecute (or alternatively the kid is arrested and interviewed on suspicion of dangerous driving - hugely unlikely btw) there is no point in seeking legal advice or attempting to influence the actions of the police/prosecution in any way.

Dangerous driving is theoretically imprisonable for up to two years, so he should be legally represented in that case, and as he is now (and may still be if and when summonsed) under 18, he should be entitled to legal representation as of right in the interests of justice. If he is not in full-time education he will still be subject to the means test however.

He can certainly request that the date be changed; also, if a legal representative attends for him and he is on summons, he will be deemed present and does not have to attend. The court will probably adjourn the matter but does not have to. (It might be cheaper to get a brief to turn up for half an hour than to lose the holiday). The matter could then be adjourned for sentence once he returns from holiday.

Hintza

At the end of the day keep quiet do not ask them anything and with a bit of luck nothing will come of it.