Solar PV Feed In Tariffs - Good or Bad?

grahamc2003

HalloweenJack wrote: »

Drax also happens to be the largest coal fired power station in western europe @ 3960 mw.......

its also going bankrupt (again)

as well as coal it burns biomass , and a 12 turbine wind farm is under consent next to it

Going bankrupt eh?

Well the share price is up over 25% in the last year, and the ceo had this to say at the last results

Dorothy Thompson, Chief Executive of Drax, said:

"We have delivered an excellent performance across the business in the first half of 2011. Having entered the year with strong forward sales, and having continued to operate the plant well, we have produced good financial results for the period.


Don't let any facts get in the way of your rants Jack.

The_Green_Hornet

Drax Power Limited financial five year summary can be found here:

http://www.draxpower.com/investor/results_and_reports/

zeupater

grahamc2003 wrote: »

Time to put up or shut up Martin.

Show your logic showing my statement that drax generated in 12 minutes the total annual output last year of all home solar is a factor of 1000 out.

If you can't, or want to weasel out of your statement, tell me who the 'some' who would suggest that are, and I'll ask them.

As to what a googler such as you would know about the electricity supply industry - well that is clear for all to see.

(PS Mart, there's nothing wrong with being ignorant about certain things. We are all mostly ignorant about most things, and all know quite a bit about a few things. For example, I know next to nothing of brain surgery or what bank clerks do. But then again, I don't spend 10 minutes googling the topics and then tell brain surgeons and bank clerks that they are talking cr*p when talking about brain surgery or bank clerking).

Hi

If you don't mind, I'll accept that challenge in order to inject a little logic into the debate ....

If Wikipedia is to be believed (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_power_in_the_United_Kingdom), then as of August last year the UK had approximately 200MW of installed pv capacity, which they claim to be capable of providing 200GWh of energy over a year, this may be a little high (1000kWh/kWp), so let's work on 840kWh/kWp and say that 168GWh would be the 2011 pv production .... now let's look at Drax, the same source gives the capacity of the station as being 3870MW(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drax_power_station), however Drax published it's target sales for 2011 as being 25.8TWh (http://www.draxgroup.plc.uk/files/presentation/156930/IMS_15_Nov_2011_FINAL.pdf), which seems to suggest that the station averages generation at around 76.1% of capacity (25.8/((3870*24*365)/1000000)

The calculation would therefore be that 168/25800 of a year represents the relative proportion of pv to Drax, or in standard format 0.65%. Converting 0.65% of a year into minutes would yield 3416 minutes (0.0065*365*24*60), or 2days 9Hrs.

The factor which 12 minutes is out is therefore 3416/12, so x285 and the factor by which 1000x is out is by a factor of (1000/285), so x3.51.

There are two ways of looking at this outcome .... Graham loses by terms of magnitude because x285 is greater than x3.51, or Mart loses in terms of total generation because claiming a factor of 1000 is 3.51 times too large and would result in a greater difference in terms of pure generation .... however, weighing up the balance of what was said and placing it into context, Mart wins hands down, but placing it into context of the total generation of pv compared against other forms of generation, which is what Graham was doing, then Graham wins the argument by a clear margin.

How do I see the result ? ... well Graham wins without a doubt ....

Next please .... :cool:
HTH
Z

grahamc2003

zeupater wrote: »

Hi

If you don't mind, I'll accept that challenge in order to inject a little logic into the debate ....

If Wikipedia is to be believed (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_power_in_the_United_Kingdom), then as of August last year the UK had approximately 200MW of installed pv capacity, which they claim to be capable of providing 200GWh of energy over a year, :cool:
HTH
Z

Well, you're a bit of a spoilsport having a bash, afterall, your engineering abilities aren't in doubt, at least by me - I really wanted to see Mart's justification for his views, and seeing his calculations which I expect would have been 'interesting'.

But anyhow, I'm afraid you haven't read the question correctly, so I'm afraid it's a grade F for your answer, although I expect it has merit for the question not asked which you did answer.

Please re-read the question again, and have another go .... and if you don't end up with 12 minutes, I'd recheck your calcs again.

Martyn1981

grahamc2003 wrote: »

Time to put up or shut up Martin.

Show your logic showing my statement that drax generated in 12 minutes the total annual output last year of all home solar is a factor of 1000 out.

If you can't, or want to weasel out of your statement, tell me who the 'some' who would suggest that are, and I'll ask them.

As to what a googler such as you would know about the electricity supply industry - well that is clear for all to see.

(PS Mart, there's nothing wrong with being ignorant about certain things. We are all mostly ignorant about most things, and all know quite a bit about a few things. For example, I know next to nothing of brain surgery or what bank clerks do. But then again, I don't spend 10 minutes googling the topics and then tell brain surgeons and bank clerks that they are talking cr*p when talking about brain surgery or bank clerking).

Certainly, I'll accept that challenge (can't believe you didn't check your maths first). Of the top of my head:

End of 2011 200,000 households, average 2,500kwh's pa or 2.5MWh's

200,000 * 2.5MWh = 500,000MWh's

Drax is rated at full belt - 3,940MW

500,000 / 3,940 = 126.9hrs

126.9hrs * 60 mins = 7,614mins

7,614 / 12 = 634.5

"some might even suggest that you are out by nearly a 1000:1"

So, are you going to accept your own challenge of put up or shut up? Is this it, have you finally seen the light, and realised why so many people think that solar PV can eventually generate a substantial amount of energy? Is it because all of your maths has always been out by nearly 1000:1?

I put up, will you shut up?

Awaiting your non-response.

Mart.

(PS Graham, there's nothing wrong with being ignorant about certain things. We are all mostly ignorant about most things, and all know quite a bit about a few things. For example, I know next to nothing of brain surgery or what bank clerks do. But then again, I don't spend 10 minutes googling the topics and then tell brain surgeons and bank clerks that they are talking cr*p when talking about brain surgery or bank clerking).

Martyn1981

Z, sorry if I got you a F.

Would you mind if I borrow that 76.1% number, as that changes things to:
834:1

Is that close enough to 'nearly' 1000:1?

M.

don0301

grahamc2003 wrote: »

Time to put up or shut up Martin.

Show your logic showing my statement that drax generated in 12 minutes the total annual output last year of all home solar is a factor of 1000 out.

If you can't, or want to weasel out of your statement, tell me who the 'some' who would suggest that are, and I'll ask them.

As to what a googler such as you would know about the electricity supply industry - well that is clear for all to see.

(PS Mart, there's nothing wrong with being ignorant about certain things. We are all mostly ignorant about most things, and all know quite a bit about a few things. For example, I know next to nothing of brain surgery or what bank clerks do. But then again, I don't spend 10 minutes googling the topics and then tell brain surgeons and bank clerks that they are talking cr*p when talking about brain surgery or bank clerking).

*pulls up chair, and gets some popcorn*

why did you just modify your post to "home" solar graham?

ps thanks for subsidising my FiT

grahamc2003

don0301 wrote: »

*pulls up chair, and gets some popcorn*

why did you just modify your post to "home" solar graham?

ps thanks for subsidising my FiT

Thanks for input up to your usual standard Don.

I haven't just edited anything at all, but never mind.

Mart - Not wanting to be too cruel with a post which you probably wouldn't read or understand, I'll request that Zeupater breaks the bad news to you on your interesting calculation, if he would be so kind.

don0301

grahamc2003 wrote: »

Thanks for input up to your usual standard Don.

I haven't just edited anything at all, but never mind.

Mart - Not wanting to be too cruel with a post which you probably wouldn't read or understand, I'll request that Zue breaks the bad news to you on your interesting calculation, if he would be so kind.

really? then how come i was watching your status and it was "modifying post"?

Martyn1981

grahamc2003 wrote: »

Thanks for input up to your usual standard Don.

I haven't just edited anything at all, but never mind.

Mart - Not wanting to be too cruel with a post which you probably wouldn't read or understand, I'll request that Zeupater breaks the bad news to you on your interesting calculation, if he would be so kind.

'Put up or shut up'.

That was the challenge, is your word no better than your maths?

Mart.