Sold Faulty Cooker, Returned Cooker but Not Refunded

G-BNWK

Hi all

We are in a bit of a dilemma. A few months ago we purchased a second hand gas cooker from Ebay. We did a "Buy It Now" and then paid by Paypal. Straight away we had a phone call from the seller saying he would give us a refund and then we had to pay cash on collection, as his Paypal account was not letting him withdraw his funds.

We duly went to collect the cooker and pay cash. On arrival we were a little concerned as it was not as we had presumed a private seller, but one of those second hand appliance shops that has a mountain of cookers and washing machines on the pavement outside. Nevertheless we paid £150 cash and took the cooker away.

After a good clean we had our gas fitter plumb it in. The cooker was one of those with a cutoff valve so that when you close the lid the gas is cut off. After a few uses we began to realise that if we did not close the lid, a few hours after using the house smelt of gas. It took us a while to put 2+2 together and realise it was the cooker. One morning we came down and it was so bad we half expected to find the dog in a very bad state, but fortunately she was OK. We had our gas man back out who tested the cooker and said it had a leak.

We then stopped using it and contacted the shop who said they are all fully tested before being sold, and in 25 years he'd never sold a faulty one. Nevertheless he said if we took the cooker back to him (an hours drive away), he would get his gas man to test it and if faulty issue a refund. He refused to send his man to us, but for the safety of our family we took it down to him.

His gas man tested it and told us it was one of the worst leaks he had ever seen. He told the shop owner who apologised and said we could have our money back, however he would send it by Paypal. We protested that we paid cash, but he said they don't keep cash in the shop (!). Stupidly, we obtained a receipt to say they had taken the cooker but agreed to let them pay by Paypal, and left our details.

Three weeks later we have still received nothing. His excuse was that their Paypal was frozen again, so they would send a cheque, however two weeks after that conversation we've received nothing. He started getting very rude when we rang him, then just stopped answering our calls.

We are now £150 out of pocket and he has the cooker back. I just have no idea what to do next. The shop is about an hour away and we can't just pop round, but we are thinking of taking a trip on Monday and staying until they give us our money. Other than that what else can we do? Was thinking about trading standards but not much use without a cooker to show them, and to go to the small claims court wouldn't we need a receipt from when we bought the cooker?

unholyangel

Send a letter before action - recorded delivery.

Title it "Letter Before Action".
Keep it straight forward, factual and simple as much as possible. State what the problem is (promised a refund for faulty cooker but has not materialised). What you want them to do to fix it (issue a refund) and a deadline (personally I'd say 7 days).

Do you have copies of the listing, emails, receipt for £150 (i know you said you had one for returning the cooker)? If not, it might be an idea to make them just in case Small claims court will work on the balance of probabilities. If you can show the listing, receipt for the returned cooker then, in my opinion.....on the balance of probabilities you paid £150 for the cooker.

G-BNWK

Thanks for your response unholyangel, I think that is the best bet and would give them the chance to pay before we take them to court. We have the Paypal receipt but he refunded that so we could pay cash when we bought it. The only other thing we have is his handwritten paper receipt saying "Refund Given for Faulty Cooker - Paypal". We can prove we received no money by providing a Paypal statement, so hopefully that will be enough.

wealdroam

It is really important that you also state in the letter before action what will happen if they don't refund your money within those seven days (or whatever period you choose).
I.e. you will start the small claims court process to recover your money.

An LBA is part of the legal process... you are not just giving them another chance before court.
You are warning them that court follows if they do not perform.

Hintza

Second hand and bought months ago? Might struggle here.

bod1467

Why? They have a receipt from the trader promising the refund.

I suspect this will need to go to court. This trader sounds like a total scam artist, who'll ignore the LBA.

Question: do eBay have rules about traders posing as private sellers?
OP - did the listing purport to be a private sale?

arcon5

Before sending a letter before action and proceeding to court, phone him/email him/write to him giving him a date in which you will be visiing him and expect a full refund in cash. Then turn up and insist he gives you your money back. See what excuses he has then.

MOCB

I've just won a case on the Small Claims Track on a consumer matter. I also had a separate, vaguely similar situation to you a year ago, where an internet company promised a refund (after I returned an item that was not what I ordered) but didn't pay. There was a lot on the internet about the company - many people with similar experiences as me. The good news - I got the refund, albeit after 3 months (after I sent a Letter Before Claim).

To the best of my knowledge, it is a criminal offence for a business to pose as a private seller (I am not sure if yours actually did). To check if it is a criminal offence, I suggest phoning the CAB or Trading Standards (I suggest the latter first).

You need to be aware that a risk you run is that the business might cease trading without paying you, even if you are successful in court. But you also may be successful. On the face of it it you seem to have an arguable case but you would have to see a lawyer to get a professional opinion on that - I cannot tell you.

You do not have to have documentary evidence of everything. You can give oral evidence, i.e. just tell the judge what happened. Obviously documentary evidence is better than oral evidence but my point is that you do not have to have documentary evidence.

I would:

1a. Check the original eBay sale to see if the seller posed as a private seller. If so:

1b. Collect the evidence right now (take screenshots & print the webpage out - double protection). To take a screenshot, find & press the 'Print Screen' key (this copies the screeen); open Microsoft word & press 'paste' (Control V).

1c. Phone Trading Standards.

2a. Contact eBay. I doubt they will help you financially as you didn't pay via Paypal but lodge a complaint against the seller – it is possible that the seller is using eBay to advertise its goods but then presumably being issued an automatic refund on the ground that the sale apparently never went ahead as a refund was issued. Maybe the seller did not do this - I do not now. But if eBay's rules were being broken, it should have a vested interest in investigating it - and the seller may issue you your refund to get eBay off your back.

2b. Check eBay's rules to see if the seller has broken any of them. If so, cite them in your complaint to eBay.

3. Send a Letter Before Claim.

Legal action is a pain in the neck - hence why most of my comments above involve alternatives - so I hope you can get a refund without taking that route.

Good luck!

MOCB

How much money have you wasted due to the cooker being faulty, apart from the purchase price? I'm thinking of the cost of the gas fitter callouts. Arguably it is a reasonably forseeable loss and recoverable. When the company I dealt with refused to compensate me, I included similar losses in my claim.

MOCB

EBay's Terms & Conditions state, under the heading 'Using eBay':

'While using eBay, you will not:

• ...circumvent or manipulate our fee structure, the billing process, or fees owed to eBay;
• post false, inaccurate, misleading, defamatory, or libellous content (including personal information);'

http://pages.ebay.co.uk/help/policies/user-agreement.html

1. I would complain to eBay that the seller was attempting to 'circumvent or manipulate our fee structure' by refunding your Paypal payment and asking you to pay cash. If the shop eventually gives a refund then I guess that eBay has suffered no loss because fees due to it would be refunded but that is not the point - had the cooker not been faulty then eBay's fees would have been due.
2. If the advert did not declare itself to be a business sale, I would argue that the second rule above has been broken - the advert was 'false, inaccurate or misleading' by omission i.e. it did not state that the seller was a shop and therefore implied or gave the impression that the seller was a private individual.
3. I would make a similar complaint to Paypal, after checking their Ts & Cs, not least because they appear to have suffered a financial loss.
4. I note that Play.com's Ts & Cs state that if a sale is brought about via Play but concluded outside it then its fees are payable. If eBay/Paypal has a similar rule then the shop might be charged for their commission on your sale even though it was concluded outside Paypal.

techspec

Did you get a cash receipt? If not, you just have a paypal payment that he can prove he refunded.