Advice for a PCN please!

MarkyMarkD

"Access to off-street premises" means driving along the pedestrianised street to drive your vehicle into premises which cannot be accessed by any other route. It doesn't mean driving along there to pick up or drop off your wife.

OP, I can't believe that you really believe you are allowed to drive along a pedestrianised street to drop someone off. It's obviously wrong.

Tripledrop

http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=67544

Thanks again for the posts!

TrickyWicky

Coupon-mad wrote: »

it remains their PCN though.

No thats not quite right actually. Whilst its true that many hire companies will just pay it they do have the option to specify the person responsible for the vehicle. The PCN is addressed to the driver when placed on the windscreen and under those circumstances can be accepted and taken responsibility of by the driver even if they don't own the vehicle. That said, postal PCNs are always going to be a bit different. If the hire company don't pass on your details then naturally they might pay it and seek it from the driver and as the driver never knew a PCN had even been received until its too late...

@Tripledrop:
That sign you show to me is pretty clear. No vehicles (the red circle with the car and motorbike) except taxis and access to off street premises at any time and for loading between 4am-11am. It then shows a no waiting at any time sign.

Techincally you've disobeyed a prohibition of traffic order which could of got you in trouble with the local rozzers (and still could). We had a zone like this where I worked. The yellow at any time sign covers the entire pedestrian area irrespective of there being yellow lines or not as pedestrian zones don't legally need them. That said those photos are bad quality but you never know what CCTV the council may have to prove you were there.

It's down to you really, you could risk an appeal (and the chance they may get the police involved) or pay it and they'll probably leave the police out of it. Rock and hard place really.

I guess what you should try to remember is this: Pedestrian zones are for pedestrians and loading activity during prescribed hours. Loading is the movement of heavy or unreasonable goods and picking up passengers doesn't count unforuntately.

Whatever you do, good luck and keep us updated!

Coupon-mad

MarkyMarkD wrote: »

"Access to off-street premises" means driving along the pedestrianised street to drive your vehicle into premises which cannot be accessed by any other route. It doesn't mean driving along there to pick up or drop off your wife.

OP, I can't believe that you really believe you are allowed to drive along a pedestrianised street to drop someone off. It's obviously wrong.[/QUOTE]



Really?

Pepipoo disagreed:

http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=67544

Wrong contravention code and an exemption anyway to board a passenger (and as an aside, a muddled sign mixing a moving traffic restriction with a parking one).

Just goes to show that it's always worth posting any Council PCN on pepipoo, it didn't take them long to pick the holes in that PCN and should only be a matter of time now before the Council fold. Wrong code has to be fatal to the PCN surely.

OP please let us know on here when you win in the end.

TrickyWicky

Coupon-mad wrote: »

Pepipoo disagreed:

http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=67544

Wrong contravention code and an exemption anyway to board a passenger (and as an aside, a muddled sign mixing a moving traffic restriction with a parking one).

Just goes to show that it's always worth posting any Council PCN on pepipoo, it didn't take them long to pick the holes in that PCN and should only be a matter of time now before the Council fold. Wrong code has to be fatal to the PCN surely.

OP please let us know on here when you win in the end.

Hmm, I wouldn't go as far as to say its even the wrong contravention code to be honest and I certainly wouldn't say pepipoo are right either.

The sign clearly states that loading is allowed between 4am and 11 - which means that NO LOADING activity is permitted outside of those times so code 02 is technically correct. Loading isn't permitted, so they've issued a PCN for loading where prohibited.

Alexis on that site also says:

Seems pretty clear that you were accessing the off-street premises to me. Appeal with 'the contravention did not occur' and include proof that your wife worked there.

Nowhere has tripledrop said that they stopped on private property (classed as off-street) - EG the companies back yard but has said that the local CEO said that they couldn't stop there which clearly indicates this was public land. Alexis therefore is incorrect. The sign doesn't say 'any access' it says "access to off-street premises" meaning private property. This also means that SchoolRunMum is incorrect over on pepipoo too

Alexis then goes on to say that it grants access 24/7 :eek: This is clearly WRONG and Alexis whilst trying to help, is actually doing the opposite - giving tripledrop a weaker case at appeal. Then Alexis is suggesting you could open boxes and take out small items to be classed as loading? - I can tell you now, if I caught someone doing that it would be a PCN on the windscreen while they watched and it would be enforced at an appeal.

If you ask me, pepipoo's standards have gone down hill since I was a member there years ago.

@tripledrop: I'd still be inclined to try and appeal anyway but I don't want you to get your hopes up based on false help. If nothing else, the appeal will delay the clock ticking down and give you more time to find the money should you loose. Your 14 days could stretch to over a month so you'd have more time to find the cash.

Stay away from pedestrian zones in the future - they're really not worth the hassle.

Coupon-mad

Clark Kent on pepipoo said wrong contravention code and he works for a Council Parking team - so I reckon he's right and we had already said on here that boarding is an exemption. As I expect you know I am SRM over there and I reckon the OP will most likely win this one.

And of course small boxes are OK as a loading exemption. Even postal packets are OK and what about the Jane Packer flowers case?

Loaded items do not have to be heavy or bulky although some Councils pretend they do.

esmerobbo

If I described to my wife that dropping her off or picking her up, was loading or unloading I think she would slap me round me ead !!:p

TrickyWicky

Coupon-mad wrote: »

Clark Kent on pepipoo said wrong contravention code and he works for a Council Parking team - so I reckon he's right and we had already said on here that boarding is an exemption. As I expect you know I am SRM over there and I reckon the OP will most likely win this one.

I'd like to hope the op will win however given the fact that they completely disobeyed a prohibition of traffic order and then waited in a no waiting restriction .. anything is possible. You may think its a clear cut win but it might not be.

Clark Kent eh?.. Sure, may work for a council parking team but so have I. Doesn't mean he or I am right. Just because you want to think/believe that you are right o a technicality doesn't mean that you are.

I once had some bloke come up to me and the driver of a car I'd just PCN'd that was parked on the pavement next to double yellow lines. This interfering bloke came up knowing it all saying the ticket was invalid because the wheels were not on the lines :rotfl:. When I asked him what he knew of the Traffic Management act: Nothing. When I asked him what he knew of the Road Traffic Act: Nothing. When I asked him how long he'd been driving it turned out he didn't even have a provisional. Yet he was convinced he was correct and was telling the driver to put the ticket in the bin.

Coupon-mad wrote: »

And of course small boxes are OK as a loading exemption. Even postal packets are OK and what about the Jane Packer flowers case?

No they're not. If you can carry items with ease then you should park elsewhere - unless of course you have a van load of small items, thats clearly a different issue. As for the Jane Packer thing, never heard of it so I can't comment.

Coupon-mad wrote: »

Loaded items do not have to be heavy or bulky although some Councils pretend they do.

It is the general rule. Common sense applies but as mentioned above, if you have a van load full of small items that aren't packed up into big boxes then common sense says that you need to be reasonably near the premises but its not an excuse to take the pee. I've known some businesses claim to be unloading and then leave the van sat there half an hour with no loading activity at all. I've observed it with my own eyes standing further up the road timing them. When you then come back tapping stuff into the hand held computer and they see you suddenly boxes start being moved around. At that point the contravention has already occurred and the PCN is still issuable. I have done so too to the dismay of some mick-takers whilst others have admitted "Fair enough mate you got me, I'll move it".

As for boarding / alighting, it's only an exemption if the vehicle is permitted into the road. In the case of no vehicles it doesn't apply as the vehicle shouldn't even be there in the first place. We'll have to wait and see what the outcome of this is as we can all speculate but we're not the decision makers.

Coupon-mad

Jane Packer Flowers is the reference case that explains loading the best way IMHO.

Loading and Boarding/Alighting Key cases at PATAS:

http://keycases.parkingandtrafficappeals.gov.uk/index.php#search

...if you use the drop-down box and choose 'loading/unloading', the results include the Jane Packer case (RIP as she died recently I learned when Googling).

And many Traffic Orders actually define that 'postal packets' are OK to load/unload - as upheld by many successful appeals available with a key cases search or by searching good old pepipoo forums. Numerous items being unloaded is OK and they do not have to be bulky, large or heavy (e.g. they could be small but fragile items...small but valuable...etc.).

And finally that's not a no-entry road so vehicles can be there under various circumstances, so as you are no doubt aware, it's not always as cut and dried as a 'pedestian road' may sound. I know of one near a friend's house where you can drive into and down it before 10am and can stay for an hour even though it becomes 'pedestrianised at 10am'. So of course cars are legitimately parked there until up to 11am and then driving out. Bit different than the OP's complicated signage but another example of a pedestrianised road that 'could' have cars in it. Some pedestrians do jump out of their skin when you drive up behind them to leave the street I am thinking of, though, and I think it's daft that they ever pedestrianised it.

Tripledrop

Well I really appreciate all the comments and help, and I will be (hopefully) filling the form in today. I'll update with any info!