Council Says Planning Permission Required For Existing Fence With New Panels

Debt_Free_Chick

Does the fence face the road (public highway)? If so, how far away from the road is it?

Rick62

Anyone here notice that 200,000 civil servants went on strike last week? This really should take a prize - have they no real work?

CIM

Debt_Free_Chick wrote:

Does the fence face the road (public highway)? If so, how far away from the road is it?

Yes it does face the road, it is more or less adjacent to a pavement I believe. I recall from a previous enquiry I made a couple of years back with a different council regarding my own house that fences greater than 1 metre which face the road require planning permission. Fair enough if this is a new structure I suppose - but this fence had been there for over 13 years...

As I understand it the objection from the Planning Dept. in this case was effectively ignoring any history of an existing fence having been there for many years simply because too many panels had been replaced thus constituting a new structure.

The guy is feeling naturally very aggrieved as he was basically improving the existing fence - making it safer and smarter appearance, and gets a letter from the council for his trouble.

Snow_Dog

Jobsworths, total waste of space, wages, oxygen and any other of the earths resources that they consume.

He could possibly argue that he repaired an existing structure that was becoming a danger to human health in that all of the panels were breaking up and could easily in high wind have blown out into someone on the footpath.

They are quick enough round here to send letters out to people about cutting back tree branches (usually about 12 foot up) just in case anyone walks into them. While ignoring the awful state of the pavements that are complete trip hazards full of potholes etc.

anotherbigspender

CIM wrote:

Yes it does face the road, it is more or less adjacent to a pavement I believe. I recall from a previous enquiry I made a couple of years back with a different council regarding my own house that fences greater than 1 metre which face the road require planning permission.

Hit the nail on the head there my friend.

Yes its crazy, but as long as the red tape is there the planning officers have to enforce it / work with it. Interesting article in the Sunday Times on planning by Kevin MacCleod - he was talking a lot of rubbish mostly but reforming the permitted development rules to allow planners to do proper planning was one thing I happened to agree with. I'm a consultant and am fed up getting bogged down dealing with stupid stuff when I could be working on something much more interesting.

Anyway, there are two ways around this (both require some effort unfortunately :rotfl: ).

The Council have raised this as an issue because your friend has substantially replaced the existing fence - this constitutes development and because the garden fronts the highway it doesn't come under the PD limits.

Your friend could:

1. Apply for planning permission - they have a strong case as A fence, but not THE fence, has been in situ for many years. Its more of a red tape exercise.

2. Replace the fence bit by bit so what he is doing doesn't constitute development. Difficult one to judge in respect of how much to do and how long to leave it before doing more, but technically feasible.

If it was me, I'd bite the bullet and get planning permission. It'll make their life easy if any keen solicitor raises it when they sell, and will just be a bit of paper pushing with a couple of photographs ... no biggy.

In the meantime, they can keep their fence as it is and the enforcement officer will leave them alone until the planing application is determined.

Hope this helps.

anotherbigspender

Snow_Dog wrote:

Jobsworths, total waste of space, wages, oxygen and any other of the earths resources that they consume.

Hardly fair, they're only doing what the Government pay them to do. Remember they don't make the rules, they just use them.

Debt_Free_Chick

CIM wrote:

Yes it does face the road, it is more or less adjacent to a pavement I believe. I recall from a previous enquiry I made a couple of years back with a different council regarding my own house that fences greater than 1 metre which face the road require planning permission.

Yes - I think that's their point. PP is required as they will be concerned with the "sight lines" i.e. whether or not it might create a hazard for vehicles or pedestrians.

Fair enough if this is a new structure I suppose - but this fence had been there for over 13 years...

Fully understand this. I think the planning authority might have you on a technicality - but then again, I think someone locally has complained!

As I understand it the objection from the Planning Dept. in this case was effectively ignoring any history of an existing fence having been there for many years simply because too many panels had been replaced thus constituting a new structure.

The guy is feeling naturally very aggrieved as he was basically improving the existing fence - making it safer and smarter appearance, and gets a letter from the council for his trouble.

I can understand the irritation. I have some limited involvment with planning regulations (as a Parish Council Clerk), but I'm not familiar with the detail. What I do know is that the hands of the planners are tied - they don't make the rules, they merely have to apply them. And, as I said earlier, I think someone has complained or the "jobsworth" is a local resident. Once a complaint is made, the planners are duty-bound to investigate it (you can see the headlines in the local press, if there were an accident, with the fence implicated .... a complaint that had not be acted on ....blah, blah, blah).

Your friend can continue to try & fight the planners. Or he could try and work with them. Perhaps he could arrange to visit the planning office and talk to them - and/or invite them out to visit the site. Get him to ask them if they envisage any difficulty in getting PP. More often than not, they will tell you if there is a sticking point which would mean he would not get PP. Contrary to popular opinion, planners are not there to stop development - their job is only to see that any development is within the planning regulations.

A fence is pretty much the same sort of "structure" as a house - as it's not mobile. It can be removed - but not simply moved. But the real planning issue is to do with sight lines.

I suggest an off the record discussion with the planners. Then, if any changes are needed, they can be made before the formal planning application is made. So he will at least be making an application that is likely to be granted PP.

HTH

CIM

prudryden wrote:

Take some of the old timber and put it back, leaving the majority the new timber. Tell the DC (Dear Council) that you only patched it up not replaced it.

Its too late for that. The council are aware that new panels have been fitted as the chap spoke to the planning officer who informed him regarding the 'new structure' nonsense.

Hence the question - may the old panels be legitimately refitted or would the council be within their rights not to accept this?

Even then this would still be a rediculous situation - I have seen pictures of the new fence panels and it is a deal tidier than the old one, and obviously exactly where the old ones were as its the same posts.

One alternative argument I would have be inclined to make is that if you include the weight of the concrete footings for each post, plus the weight of the posts themselves, by weight, he may well have replaced less than 50% of the fence. Somehow I doubt they would accept that argument - but I have no idea what the real rules are here or whether they make 'em up as they go along just to make our lives a bit more difficult.

Debt_Free_Chick

anotherbigspender wrote:

Hit the nail on the head there my friend.

I was typing my reply as you posted. Interesting that we say pretty much the same thing.

Stick around, will you? We get loads of PP enquiries and your experience will be invaluable. :T

anotherbigspender

Debt_Free_Chick wrote:

I was typing my reply as you posted. Interesting that we say pretty much the same thing.

Stick around, will you? We get loads of PP enquiries and your experience will be invaluable. :T

... and some of the responses from people who claim to know what they are talking about are pretty interesting! ... not from you I might add

I try and log in once a day and do a quick sweep. Luckily this one was right at the top tonight.