Ryanair collect APD and keep much of it but now they are levying their own tax on UK

2sides2everystory

Now the dust has settled on Ryanair's 1st November 2011 card fee trickery, what actually do we have here?

Those of us that know Ryanair very well know that for years they have collected UK Air Passenger Duty (APD) but managed to keep lots of it by not refunding it following booking cancellations. To discourage APD reclaims, they applied an arbitrary Admin Fee which was bigger than the tax refund due to the passenger.

What the UK HMRC rules are for that accumulated unclaimed tax is anyone's guess - maybe Ryanair can't take it as direct profit, perhaps they have to reprocess it as the subsidy for their occasional "No Tax" promotions.

The point is, Ryanair, the airline who hypocritically claim "No fuel surcharges" have been very adept at collecting real and nefarious "taxes" and "fees" from APD to Wheelchair surcharges to Ash Cloud surcharges to Card Admin Fees to Check-in Fees to £60 penalties / £100 change fees ... well you name it.

Largely (apart from UK APD which they have complained loudly about) all these dreamed up fees have been applied relatively consistently across a single European Market.

The single European Market hasn't liked the lack of transparency of these fees right up front, and it particularly hasn't liked the inflated card fees, but broadly the pricing has been non-discriminatory across Europe i.e. Ryanair has not applied any tax to one country's passengers above any other beyond that it is obliged to charge for individual states' Air Passenger Duty.


Then 1st November 2011 comes and goes with a minor fanfare about a new payment card. For a while it seems that UK payment cardholders are being singled out and herded to a particular payment card sponsored by Ryanair. The masses are largely confused. Ryanair itself is confused. It's website falters. It's website becomes a mess.

Then suddenly within a month we find that Ryanair has abandoned its message about a getting special payment card and Ryanair is not bothered about how many of its passengers actually get one of the new cards - it changes its website again so that actually the notorious 'optional' card payment fee has now completely metamorphosed into a for all economic intents and purposes UNAVOIDABLE RYANAIR TAX (in addition to any government tax) on ALL Air Passenger journeys (SINGLE OR RETURN) that start in the UK.

Ryanair is now the total hypocrite.

Ryanair in November stands alongside Willie Walsh's British Airways and complains loudly about HMRC's UK Air Passenger Duty which applies only to flights departing the UK whilst at the same time its executives sat back in Dublin are refining the new homegrown Ryanair UK both ways Air Passenger Duty which applies to both departing and arriving flights if they are part of the same booking and start in the UK.

The difference is that the UK government is empowered by the state to cause such a tax to be collected on behalf of the state, but Ryanair is certainly not empowered by the state to levy its own tax on UK flights for its own pocket.

Nevertheless, that is what Ryanair is now doing. Don't be fooled by the smokescreen of "optional card fees". There are no optional card fees now. Look at the uneconomically onerous conditions associated with the new Ryanair card which mean regular travellers like me still have not got one (we regulars didn't miss a beat when Electron was out and prepaid Mastercard was in, but 2011 is very different), and then look at the number of failed applications for the new Ryanair card, and then consider Ryanair's indifference to those criticisms and reports.


I think the card is a smokescreen for the imposition of an unlawful tax.

What say?

And particularly - What say the OFT and CAA to this hooliganism and impostering?
Ryanair are not a European State - they are certainly not empowered to tax our flights for their own pocket.

antenna

No but,Yeah but,No but............can you regulary find cheaper all in flights with any other airline.......i thought not.

alanrowell

Haven't you already done this one - or was it another Ryanair rant?

dtaylor84

2sides2everystory wrote: »

Ryanair are not a European State - they are certainly not empowered to tax our flights for their own pocket.

No, but they can charge whatever they want for their services (as long as they advertise the prices clearly and unambiguously).

2sides2everystory

You guys don't understand concepts like misleading commercial practices, deliberate obstruction to the buying decision creating bait and switch, general hypocrisy, a single European market or discrimination do you ?

dzug1

2sides2everystory wrote: »

You guys don't understand concepts like misleading commercial practices, deliberate obstruction to the buying decision creating bait and switch, general hypocrisy, a single European market or discrimination do you ?

And you are trying to obfuscate the difference between a tax (levied by government) and a fee (levied by Ryanair) .

It doesn't help your case. Frankly it destroys part of it and stops you being taken seriously.

whitelabel

if you dont like them, use some one else.. simples

2sides2everystory

dzug1 wrote:

And you are trying to obfuscate the difference between a tax (levied by government) and a fee (levied by Ryanair) .

Don't use big words you don't understand. I am contrasting and comparing and thereby am far from obfuscating the difference (hiding it). I am exposing it!

Ryanair obfuscates the real nature of its many nefarious fees under a general heading of 'Taxes and Fees' and of course their favorite the good old obfiscatory word "levy" which sounds like something official but never is with Ryanair. Currently on many of its international language website pages it is also misleading millions by suggesting that by clicking on a particular link that its card fees can be avoided. They no longer can in most international cases when it comes to travelling from the UK. Ryanair currently is in blatant breach of its own Terms & Conditions in this respect.

It doesn't help your case. Frankly it destroys part of it and stops you being taken seriously.

And is this from the one who flits from thread to thread in these forums as a self-appointed apologist for transport companies, frequently jumping on anti-Ryanair sentiment to such a degree that valid claims against Ryanair are dismissed with one word, unhelpful answers ?

I think MSE readers are pretty clued in about who or what they take seriously, dzug1.

Take a tip from me - self-awareness is a wonderful thing ... or put another way "Remove the log/plank from thine own eye ..."

benjus

How exactly is the "Admin Fee" a tax and not a fee? I can't see any coherent argument in the OP.

As I understand it, Ryanair can charge fees for pretty much whatever they want to. They could add a compulsory "Raising funds to buy back Michael O'Leary's soul" Fee to all flights if they wanted to. Or they could just raise ticket prices accordingly. I notice that you don't mention the "Online checkin" fee in your tirade - presumably this is because it is not listed as "optional" and is part of the headline price. The only thing Ryanair is obliged to do (that's relevant to this discussion) is to include all non-avoidable fees in the headline prices. Since it is possible to avoid this fee (even if it is not particularly easy), it does not count as non-avoidable.

How do you make the logical leap from Fee that is not included in the headline price to Tax? You seem to be trying to link two completely unrelated concepts here.

2sides2everystory

It's not so difficult to follow, benjus.

The UK government levies a tax on all air passengers departing UK airports.

Ryanair collects it, won't give it back when flights are cancelled but complains loudly about it as an arbitrary and unnecessary tax.

Simultaneously for all air passengers departing UK airports and those daft enough to book return legs as part of the same booking Ryanair has hypocritically intoduced its own similar ballpark "tax".

This it has done, by at a swoop, misleading customers using press releases, by publishing misleadingly false statements in its terms and conditions which persist in a number of languages even today, and by removing all reasonable actual or economic opportunity for its customers to pay fee free.

If it published its booking statistics there would be seen an enormous reduction from November 2011 in card admin fee free bookings. It wasn't very clear two months ago but it is now clear that Ryanair has caused this massive reduction deliberately and that the Cash Passport ruse has been used merely as a means to an end.


The 'end' is the introduction of an pseudo air passenger tax which I believe to be unlawful. I think it is unlawful:

1. because Ryanair is not a government so has now power or right to tax based on a single state jurisdiction
2. because of the way it is has been arrived at through a selection of misleading commercial practices, by lack of price transparency and by anti-single European market tactics.

The distinction between this an other "fees" which Ryanair has dreamed up is that this one has been administered as a single state tax almost identical to Air Passenger Duty.

I honestly do not understand why the OFT & CAA have remained silent on it. The departments concerned should be sacked but instead I imagine they are well into their Christmas Party season and dreaming of what Secret Santa will bring :mad:

benjus

2sides2everystory wrote: »

The distinction between this an other "fees" which Ryanair has dreamed up is that this one has been administered as a single state tax almost identical to Air Passenger Duty.

This seems to be the crux of your argument, such as it is. What justification do you have for stating that it has been administered as a single state tax?