Labour and the Euro summit

Sir_Humphrey

Graham_Devon wrote: »

What would you have preferred him to do?

This is the culmination of a process that started when he left the European People's Party. The point is that had he properly engaged with the other centre-right he could have persuaded them.

He's done what he went to do.

What was his objective?

Even before this, just 2 or 3 weeks back, Sarkozy was threatning Cameron in the press, and telling him to keep his nose out of EU business.

Which is exactly what is now happening. Sarko has got what he wanted.

A._Badger

As long as Bosch, Renault, EDF, Fiat, VW and all the rest of the Continent's wolves continue to eye the UK market with hunger, you can safely ignore anything Europhiles say as little more than scare stories designed to frighten anxious children.

Malcolm.

Sir_Humphrey wrote: »

I am allowed to have personal opinions. All my comments on here are my personal opinions. I am also sufficiently junior to be allowed to express them.

I am pointing out that even if you were to agree with Cameron's objectives(and to be honest I am not quite clear what they were), he has not achieved them and may actually damage his objectives.

My understanding of French objectives in Europe is to marginalise the UK - this goes right back to de Gaulle. Sarkozy achieved this objective.

Good point. Sorry. I often ask challenging questions by default, however admitedly that came out a little rude.

Apologies. :)

Graham_Devon

Sir_Humphrey wrote: »

Which is exactly what is now happening. Sarko has got what he wanted.

How can you possibly say that!?

Did you not watch the scorn being poured and the anger shown over Cameron vetoeing the agreement!? A few weeks ago, Sarkozys agenda was a different one, which didn't need Cameron, hence telling him to keep his nose out. At the summit, he needed Cameron to sign.

How can you seriously turn round and suggest Sarkozy got what he wanted!??

Sorry, I'm gonna have to stop responding. With respect, this is labour allegience gone to the extreme!

Sir_Humphrey

Malcolm. wrote: »

Alliances within europe, form and break all the time. I wouldn't worry too much. Countries historically take alliances where they can find them. They're a little fickle like that.

I agree about the political problems. The biggest danger to the govt, is the european issue has always split the conservative party. Probably more-so given the government are a coalition. It could potentially break the government.

I do have some professional experience of international negotiations, so I am well aware of the shifting nature of alliances. But Cameron has now burnt his bridges with his natural allies which I cannot see being rebuilt. Perhaps he sees this as a good thing?

Your second paragraph is correct IMO. It looks to me like he has sacrificed his European relationships to satisfy his backbenchers. I expect they will be back with more demands that he will now not be in a position to meet. He will not be able to renegotiate EU membership, and I do not think he actually wants to abandon single market membership. So he seems to have wrecked his strategic position to give himself a short-term boost amongst his own party.

Time will tell on this.

Sir_Humphrey

Graham_Devon wrote: »

How can you possibly say that!?

Did you not watch the scorn being poured and the anger shown over Cameron vetoeing the agreement!? A few weeks ago, Sarkozys agenda was a different one, which didn't need Cameron, hence telling him to keep his nose out. At the summit, he needed Cameron to sign.

How can you seriously turn round and suggest Sarkozy got what he wanted!??

Sorry, I'm gonna have to stop responding. With respect, this is labour allegience gone to the extreme!

No Sarko wanted a 17 member agreement. It was Merkel who wanted a full 27 member agreement. Sarko also managed to get his way over the Germans on this one as well because now the German rules (namely the ones that France dislikes) will be harder to enforce without a full treaty.

I REALLY hate to say this (I cannot stand Sarko) but he has done very well and would be smiling as well if I were him. The "anger" he showed was nothing but a bluff. The huge smile as he left the summit says it all.

What has Labour got to do with this anyway?

A._Badger

Sir_Humphrey wrote: »

I do have some professional experience of international negotiations, so I am well aware of the shifting nature of alliances. .

These wouldn't be the sort of 'international negotiations' that have resulted in the catastrophic mare's nest that is called 'Britain's relationship with the EU' would they?

Whitehall's role in this unholy alliance - the process whereby British politicians, once in power, seem to cave-in to the EU at the flutter of a handkerchief, needs some examination, that's for sure.

Thrugelmir

Graham_Devon wrote: »

How can you seriously turn round and suggest Sarkozy got what he wanted!??

At the current time, yes. Deflection from the real issues.

Seems as if banker bashing is the name of the game, not the fundamental flaws in the Eurozone structure.

klemutot

Wheezy wrote: »

As Stevie says, the 'fiscal compact' and excessive deficit procedures would only apply to Eurozone members.

Cameron wanted to avoid a Lisbon treaty change at all cost because of promises made that treaty change = referendum

And that's all there is to it, avoiding confrontation with the Tory backbench. If that's a good way to conduct international politics is another matter.

never look a gift horse in the mouth

dshart

Majority of the other Eurozone countries have been forced into accepting this deal, it is still to be seen if they can get it accepted by their parliaments. Once the voters in those countries, especially the ones heavily in debt realise the austerity measures that can be imposed on them by a non-elected body I am sure many of them will not be so happy at what has been agreed.

I do not believe DC backed himself into a corner here I think the Germans and French deliberately put him in this position so if their plan fails they can blame Britain and if DC had signed up to it they could have weakened Britain's dominance in the financial services industry and gained an extra income stream from the proposed Tobin tax.

What the French and Germans want it to control Europe by being able to control other countries budgets and spending, the simple face is this cannot work as the differences between Euro member states is too great and they are not yet ready for unity.