I'm getting ill with worry about animal abuse.

winterwhite11

I spent the whole of Alien petrified of what would happen to the cat - only enjoyed the film the 2nd time I saw it

lol..thats exactly what happened to me when i saw it.

winterwhite11

i try not to read things now because i get ill but i do sign lots of petitions for things to do with animals and people...i started off like you op and ended up having a severe nervous breakdown..that was 7 years ago .. you do though sound like you need to see the doctor as your obviously a delicate thing like i am and it won,t take make to make you very ill..my medication has made my life much better even though there is small illness,s now and then. the doc can also get you therepy which includes talking which helps with a lot of people..

Derivative

Animal cruelty is an interesting issue to me because it raises questions about what is and isn't actually 'cruel'.

Very few people would think twice about flushing a spider down the toilet, for example. I'd take it outside, but I recognise the irrationality of doing so, as it's fairly certain that spiders don't experience consciousness in the way that humans do.

Now more intelligent animals such most domesticated pets are a lot closer, and probably experience pain in a similar way to humans, making cruelty a possibility.

But when you get down to the level of say, a frog - does a frog experience pain in the same way that a human does? Of course, a frog would flinch and try to get away if you put it on a hot plate, for example. But so would a spider.

A reflex action does not indicate pain - if you put your hand on a stove, you'll instinctively pull it away before you have any sensation of pain.

So animal cruelty presents a real conundrum to me. Pulling the legs off of a spider I wouldn't consider cruel as I don't believe that spiders have enough mental acuity to realise you'd done it, or indeed to realise any pain besides the instinctive 'flight' impulse. Where do you draw the line?

I eat meat without trying to think about it too much. I wonder how a tuna fish feels pain, for example. Is a tuna fish aware of its' own impending doom?

Myrtle77

EdgEy wrote: »

Animal cruelty is an interesting issue to me because it raises questions about what is and isn't actually 'cruel'.

Very few people would think twice about flushing a spider down the toilet, for example. I'd take it outside, but I recognise the irrationality of doing so, as it's fairly certain that spiders don't experience consciousness in the way that humans do.

Now more intelligent animals such most domesticated pets are a lot closer, and probably experience pain in a similar way to humans, making cruelty a possibility.

I can see where you are coming from. However, the flaw here is that you repeatedly use the human experience as a benchmark. Just because a creature doesn't experience things as a human would, it doesn't mean it doesn't feel pain or that something isn't 'cruel'.

I've heard the 'intelligence = pain registration' a few times over the years, and it's never made sense to me. If we were to follow that way of thinking to it's extreme conclusion, it would excuse a lot of horrific behaviour by humans towards other humans, would it not?

winterwhite11

why would someone flush spider down toilet, so cruel.
i have had children and grandchildren and always bought them up never to intentially harm living creatures yet i have seen countless small children over the years collecting ladybirds to kill ,stamp on spiders etc,...while parents look on not saying a word to them. it seems to me as if the whole world is full of horrible emotionless people who then bring there children up the same way.

Diaphanous

EdgEy wrote: »

Animal cruelty is an interesting issue to me because it raises questions about what is and isn't actually 'cruel'.

Very few people would think twice about flushing a spider down the toilet, for example. I'd take it outside, but I recognise the irrationality of doing so, as it's fairly certain that spiders don't experience consciousness in the way that humans do.

Now more intelligent animals such most domesticated pets are a lot closer, and probably experience pain in a similar way to humans, making cruelty a possibility.

But when you get down to the level of say, a frog - does a frog experience pain in the same way that a human does? Of course, a frog would flinch and try to get away if you put it on a hot plate, for example. But so would a spider.

A reflex action does not indicate pain - if you put your hand on a stove, you'll instinctively pull it away before you have any sensation of pain.

So animal cruelty presents a real conundrum to me. Pulling the legs off of a spider I wouldn't consider cruel as I don't believe that spiders have enough mental acuity to realise you'd done it, or indeed to realise any pain besides the instinctive 'flight' impulse. Where do you draw the line?

I eat meat without trying to think about it too much. I wonder how a tuna fish feels pain, for example. Is a tuna fish aware of its' own impending doom?

I don't know what type of human you are but any human who puts their hand on a hot stove will remove it because it's a pain sensation from the heat. If the stove was off there would be no reason to remove the hand. A flight response is often triggered by pain. You do not know what a spider feels when you pull it's leg off, but if it tries to get away it would not surprise me if that was pain it was feeling. You are taking away a limb after all! It's inexcusable to be cruel to ANY animal just because YOU think they don't feel pain or think like you when you have no proof. If we were to base our actions on that we'd be able to do such to those certified in a vegetative state or in a coma since they cannot feel or think like a fully working human being.

And it's been proven umpteen times that fish feel pain so why on earth would you question such a thing.

Derivative

I don't know what type of human you are but any human who puts their hand on a hot stove will remove it because it's a pain sensation from the heat. If the stove was off there would be no reason to remove the hand.

No, you first remove your hand due to a reflex. The feeling of pain comes later. In humans this is simply because the pain response travels more slowly, but there is no reason besides blind faith to believe all animals experience this pain.

Diaphanous wrote: »

It's inexcusable to be cruel to ANY animal just because YOU think they don't feel pain or think like you when you have no proof.

But what do you define as 'cruel'?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zq3UuHlPLQU

This plant is obviously sensitive to touch, but I wouldn't consider flicking it, or cutting back its' leaves as cruel.

I don't really think it's as black and white as "cruel" or "not cruel". Your viewpoint on what is cruelty is more strict than mine, yes.

Diaphanous

All animals possess a CNS of some sort thus are capable of feeling pain to some degree. A plant is not comparable as we know full well it can and will never feel pain and has no need to as it cannot run away from sources of pain like an animal can.

And last time I touched a hot stove I felt the pain then I moved my hand within a split second of feeling the pain. It's a reflex reaction to the pain. Not to anything else.

Derivative

Diaphanous wrote: »

All animals possess a CNS of some sort

Agree.

thus are capable of feeling pain to some degree.

I have not seen conclusive proof for the above - I am willing to change my mind when provided with such.

The problem is defining what is meant by pain. I do not consider movement alone to be enough. If I were asleep, and someone poked me in the side, I might roll over. But I wouldn't consider it cruel to do so if I had no ability to feel the impact.

A plant is not comparable as we know full well it can and will never feel pain and has no need to as it cannot run away from sources of pain like an animal can.

The plant I pasted above moved away from a stimulus. "We know full well"?

I'm not trying to nitpick here - I genuinely don't think presence of a CNS is enough to say that all animals experience pain (as in, the familiar intense discomfort, as opposed to simply an instinctual response).

Whether or not it's worth staying on the safe side and assuming animals do experience pain as you alluded to above is another issue - I could get behind that.

Diaphanous

Plants do not possess CNS so cannot feel pain. You need nerves to feel pain. And as I said there is no need for them to feel pain. Reacting to stimuli does not = feeling pain.