MSE News: MPs' financial education in schools debate next week

The_One_Who

Person_one wrote: »

Martin Lewis not an educator?

How many people have learnt incredibly valuable info and skills from this site? I know I have.

You don't need to stand at the front of a classroom to be an educator.

I meant that in terms of what goes on in schools and how that environment and system works. I thought that would have been obvious, apologies if not.

(As an aside, I find a lot of Martin's advice rather confusing. In interviews he talks a mile-a-minute and often makes things much more confusing than they necessarily have to be. Most of what I know has come from posters here, rather than from the MSE team itself. In fact, sometimes I have to get clarification from posters here because the articles or advice haven't been clear enough.)

Oldernotwiser

Person_one wrote: »

Martin Lewis not an educator?

How many people have learnt incredibly valuable info and skills from this site? I know I have.

You don't need to stand at the front of a classroom to be an educator.

The website is certainly educational; largely because of the contributors rather than ML himself.

True_Mister_Six

The_One_Who wrote: »

Well, good for you. I did not sign the petition because I didn't think it was thought out well enough for me to support it.

I am not an educator, and nor is Martin Lewis or from the looks of it anyone who helped create this proposal. It seems that you are only allowing one side of the discussion to be heard, trying to stifle the other as simply complaining or as not being constructive.

I have asked fairly simple questions about this idea, ones that I imagine would be the first to be asked by anyone who would be involved in having to implement this. If they cannot be answered by the team who promoted this, then why should it be left up to everyone else to do it for them?

I must apologise; for some reason I interpreted a comment of yours earlier to imply you were a teacher, which appears not to be the case from the above latter comment. Some of my frustrations with your posts had been born from this misconception.

One question if you'll indulge me; am I to understand that you do not feel there is a place for financial education at school level & that politicians shouldn't debate it because you don't think it can work?

The_One_Who

True_Mister_Six wrote: »

I must apologise; for some reason I interpreted a comment of yours earlier to imply you were a teacher, which appears not to be the case from the above latter comment. Some of my frustrations with your posts had been born from this misconception.

One question if you'll indulge me; am I to understand that you do not feel there is a place for financial education at school level & that politicians shouldn't debate it because you don't think it can work?

Sorry, my comments about school/education has been from my own experiences as a pupil, which wasn't too long ago! I do acknowledge that my experiences may be different from some others because I was taught in Scotland, using the Scottish educational curriculum.

I don't feel that there is a place for financial education as a separate subject, no. Parts of it can (and already are) incorporated into the maths curriculum, but are pupils fully engaging with that material? I'm not so sure. It's more of a means to an end.

Also, my experiences of 'social education' (or whatever it is called now) which would be an alternative teaching spot is that it is a waste of an hour, with a teacher (who is not trained in or particularly interested in the material) who also feels it is a waste.

wozearly

Oldernotwiser wrote: »

The website is certainly educational; largely because of the contributors rather than ML himself.

Which you could argue is the reason why the site makes good use of its discussion forums.

My personal area of expertise is in a certain field of insurance. ML and the site team very rarely delve into this area, but there are a number of IFAs (or similar) that do delve into making suggestions, and I chime in where appropriate, bearing in mind that as I work for one of the companies in the sector I want to be careful that I don't risk the perception of bias in favour of who I work for to the table, as I post here in a personal capacity, not a professional one.

I might add that on a technical level, the company I work for doesn't draw a distinction between the two, so I do this at my own risk. Why? Because if someone says "Help!" I'd rather help them than manipulate them.

Realistically, Martin isn't able to personally learn the nuances of every industry field himself - and he can't afford to employ people who do have this information. So I'm not surprised that, collectively, there's a lot of good wisdom in the forums which isn't picked up by ML personally.

Being relatively young myself I've learned a lot from the MSE guides which I would have otherwise learned the hard way. I can't put a financial value on it because its impossible to say what I would or wouldn't have done if the MSE site didn't exist, but I know that its been valuable to to me.

On a separate note, thank you for responding to my question about why you felt financial education wasn't worthwhile. I respect your viewpoint, even if I still disagree with you.

Its expected that people will forget a lot of what is taught. That's why, IMO, we're doing the right thing by teaching students the right concepts and principles to apply, rather than learning the 'right' answers by rote. In previous threads, you've shown (at least to my understanding) that you 'get' this, and have championed this approach with your students. Full credit to you.

However, although I agree that financial education has the potential for value judgements, I think understanding the essentials of finances is as important as understanding the essentials of maths, english, etc. Like it or not, most people will come up against this in their lives - many of them on the sharp end. It seems crazy that this isn't addressed in a formal manner.

Which is why I see it as split between maths and psychology. You've focused on the mathematical element, such as working out the impact of loans at certain percentage rates requiring a base level of numeracy and being pretty dull. I'd also say its not representative of how people actually make decisions.

This is where the psychological element comes in. Understanding how we make decisions, and how we're fallible as decision-makers, I think is critical. Knowing that getting a mortgage wrong could mean losing your house, or forfeiting years' worth of salary, is a more important message than trying to teach the 'right' way to work out a mortgage based on the current environment.

Knowing that there are well-known marketing tricks, and knowing to recognise them, helps people develop a level of cynicism, distrust and self-preservation about financial matters that will outlast the classroom. In the past, you've described this proudly with regard to recognising potential bias - I'd argue that this is no different, and why its important.

The exact details of how it should be taught can be debated ad infinitum. That it has value in the curriculum if done well to me, at least, is a no brainer.

...and I accept that we may have to agree to disagree on that point.

Swampmonster

Swampmonster wrote: »

I had no financial education at school and come from a reasonably well to do family that never talked about money. It wasn't the done thing.

I left home not having a clue how much 'life' cost.

The end result was that I have been in debt all my adult life and ended up going bankrupt two years ago.

The only good thing that has come out of this is that my children are very moneywise now, as we constantly talk about money and priorities as I never kept any part of the bankruptcy process from them. It was the best life lesson they could learn.

I believe Financial Education in schools is vital to empower our next generation to control their money and not let it control them and their future.

:T I forgot to say thank you and well done to Martin and the team for getting this to the debate stage. It is absolutely vital this is introduced. :T

pleasurebear

mumps wrote: »

Most teenagers I know want to learn to drive so that is a good start with insurance. Most teenagers won't be that interested in mortgages, although I had a mortgage when I was a teenager and I'm sure I'm not the only one. Student loans, loan to buy a car, mobile phone costs e.g. 2 year contract compared to buying a phone and getting a sim only deal. I think there are lots of financial topics that would interest them. My biggest worry would be who will teach the teachers?

Who will teach the teachers? Good question. There's history here. The Financial Services Authority were charged by the Government to provide personal finance education under the Financial Services Act. No budget or will to do what has been evident, but the Authority persuaded the high street banks to provide the "expertise" to teachers. This came in the form of teaching notes for teachers or school visits by uniformed bank staff...no prizes for guessing what motive lay behind the uniforms.

A few years ago, the Government funded Personal Finance Education Group was formed using volunteers from the financial services industry. Its aim is to take personal finance education into schools. Only qualified teachers can deliver learning to children so the pfeg put the volunteers alongside teachers.

The pfeg faced the axe under the present Government cuts but has recently re-surfaced. I am a pfeg volunteer and believe the pfeg is best placed to deliver this much-needed education.

Credit-Crunched

I personally think that the problem is a lot more deep rooted, its not about being savy with money or looking for bargains, it is about the I want it now culture.

This has been festering over the last decade or more and now it is part of the younger generations pysche. They see credit cards hp and loans as an integral part of life as their home is furnished with such open / closed ended credit.

This is a good idea however it will be like trying to turn a cruise liner with a spoon .

In addition I feel that teaching basic first aid should have precedence over this matter.

Person_one

Credit-Crunched wrote: »

I personally think that the problem is a lot more deep rooted, its not about being savy with money or looking for bargains, it is about the I want it now culture.

This has been festering over the last decade or more and now it is part of the younger generations pysche. They see credit cards hp and loans as an integral part of life as their home is furnished with such open / closed ended credit.

This is a good idea however it will be like trying to turn a cruise liner with a spoon .

In addition I feel that teaching basic first aid should have precedence over this matter.

A lot of people are claiming that the problem is with the younger generation, but my elderly relatives and many like them were borrowing from local loan sharks and ordering from extortionate catalogues and hire purchase shops long before Wonga.com or Capital One were around.