Going to an employment tribunal - advice needed.

cr1mson

lazarus888 wrote: »

my employer dismissed me for - and i quote - 'your continued absence is having an adverse effect on business delivery'.

when I asked for evidence of this adverse effect at appeal, the appeal manager said - and i quote - 'there is no documentary evidence recorded specific to yourself'.

so if the evidence does not exist why was i dismissed?

and just for the record - legal advice will be sought. im simply trying to get an idea of what im getting into from people who have been here before me but i appear to have walked into the middle of some sort of longrunning board argument that is very offputting tbh.

Seen as you do not wish to listen to valid legal arguments and I as am not a legal person will talk from my experience as a team leader.

If I had a member of my team on continued absence then I would expect it to have an impact on business delivery. However I doubt I could provide documentary evidence to support it and indeed I may be able to achieve my targets during the absence in the short term by switching resources to targetted areas etc.

C

SarEl

Jarndyce wrote: »

I

You were dismissed for unsatisfactory attendance. That is all the tribunal will need to know.

I agree. You have had your reason for dismissal, and that reason is, in its entirety sufficient for a tribunal to be satisfied on that matter. The employer was never required to evidence the impact your absence had on the business, not will the tribunal require them to - the dismissal was based on long term sickness absence and that and only that is the matter at hand. So you are entirely wasting your time and effort on concentrating on whether or not your absence had an impact on the business - it isn't relevant.

And you are not even thinking logically in making this argument. Employers employ people to work. They employ them to do that work because the work needs doing. Are you seriously consdiering arguing in front of a tribunal that your presence in work had no impact on business needs??? Because attempting to say that employer had no grounds upon which to say that your absence had an adverse impact on the production of work, is conversely arguing that your presence had no positive impact on work!

It is a "taken" that the absence of an employee impacts on work - if the aren't there they aren't doing any! So the issue is not whether they had grounds, but whether the dismissal on the grounds of absence was reasonable.

lazarus888

SarEl wrote: »

I agree. You have had your reason for dismissal, and that reason is, in its entirety sufficient for a tribunal to be satisfied on that matter. The employer was never required to evidence the impact your absence had on the business, not will the tribunal require them to - the dismissal was based on long term sickness absence and that and only that is the matter at hand. So you are entirely wasting your time and effort on concentrating on whether or not your absence had an impact on the business - it isn't relevant.

And you are not even thinking logically in making this argument. Employers employ people to work. They employ them to do that work because the work needs doing.

Im well aware of that

Are you seriously consdiering arguing in front of a tribunal that your presence in work had no impact on business needs???

Ive never suggested that im going to argue that

It is a "taken" that the absence of an employee impacts on work - if the aren't there they aren't doing any! So the issue is not whether they had grounds, but whether the dismissal on the grounds of absence was reasonable.

Whether it was reasonable will be for the tribunal as you say but I would still like to know the facts they have based their decision on. Is that really so unreasonable?

couldnt they have simply stated 'we are unable to support your absence' amd left it at that? why bring business delivery into it?

the wording they have used states that I am personally being blamed an adverse effect on business delivery. if that is the case i would simply like to see proof.

Furthermore, business delivery most definately was suffering and so we asked for 50 new fixed term members of staff to help. But i have to ask myself if business delivery really suffering at the time when I was sacked as these new staff would have been in place.

KiKi

lazarus888 wrote: »

my employer dismissed me for - and i quote - 'your continued absence is having an adverse effect on business delivery'.

when I asked for evidence of this adverse effect at appeal, the appeal manager said - and i quote - 'there is no documentary evidence recorded specific to yourself'.

so if the evidence does not exist why was i dismissed?

I don't know why you were dismissed.

But you NEED to understand this: the tribunal ONLY cares that they have acted within the law. Long term absence is a lawful reason for dismissal.

Keeping records and writing it down is good practice but not a lawful requirement. Therefore they haven't broken the law on that. And that's why the tribunal won't care about evidence. They will ask questions to ensure that the dismissal was reasonable, but as long as they can be answered, you are not entitled to see any evidence or otherwise.

You need to focus only on what is lawful or not - and you need to stop focusing on what feels fair or 'right' because they are not the same thing.

KiKi

KiKi

lazarus888 wrote: »

the wording they have used states that I am personally being blamed an adverse effect on business delivery. if that is the case i would simply like to see proof.

Exactly - you'd like to. But you're not entitled to. That's the difference. You need to accept that otherwise you're going to struggle to get through the ET.

Furthermore, business delivery most definately was suffering and so we asked for 50 new fixed term members of staff to help. But i have to ask myself if business delivery really suffering at the time when I was sacked as these new staff would have been in place.

Again - the tribunal don't care about what feels fair or not. They only care that it was reasonable to dismiss you on the grounds that you were absent. That's all.

I know it's frustrating when you can see other behaviours and frustratations and bad management practice, but the tribunal are not there to look at that, only the reasonableness of dismissing you because of your absence.

If you don't get your head around that (and I mean this kindly) then you really do need a solicitor otherwise your case will be based on the wrong information.

KiKi

lazarus888

Thank you, much appreciated.

DebiT

intandem wrote: »

kiki - I have an LLM and am a practising Lawyer. I am currently on Maternity leave - hence my presence on this site. I was missing the job and wanted to do something helpful whilst off on leave and whilst I was on the site, decided to help out with some guidance for the posters.

Well, no more.

This site is populated by some very unpleasant people.

Good bye and good luck.

What a shame that someone who was trying to help others has been bullied off here thanks to the high and mighty attitudes of some. Thank god that the leader of the bullies has me on ignore.

Acc72

lazarus888 wrote: »

the wording they have used states that I am personally being blamed an adverse effect on business delivery.

if that is the case i would simply like to see proof.

The proof is that a job existed - if your role did not help the business then it would not have existed in the first place.

They are not saying that you personally are responsible for the whole company.

zzzLazyDaisy

I am stepping into this thread somewhat cautiously, as I can see that it hasn't been plain sailing so far....

But just a few questions for OP...

Please can you tell us what your claim is for? I am presuming unfair dismissal, but are you also claiming disability discrimination?

Also it would be helpful to know if your contract included entitlement to a company sick pay scheme (when you were off sick, did you just get SSP, or were you still being paid full/half pay, and how much longer would this have continued if you hadn't been dismissed).

Also what was the manner of dismissal? In other words, did they just send you your P45 in the post? Did they tell you by phone? Or did they have a meeting with you before making the final decision?

Also, at the time of your dismissal what was the likelihood of you returning to work in the forseeable future, and did you submit a doctor's letter to that effect?

The bottom line is that being off sick does not make you bullet proof. The situation and circumstances surrounding your dismissal are very relevant and although I have read through this thread I can't see that there is enough information for anyone here to be able to advise you (although I echo earlier advice that you really need to focus on what you allege the employer has done wrong in law, and not on matters which have no legal relevance, regardless of how important you think those issues should be).

lazarus888

zzzLazyDaisy wrote: »

I am stepping into this thread somewhat cautiously, as I can see that it hasn't been plain sailing so far....

But just a few questions for OP...

Please can you tell us what your claim is for? I am presuming unfair dismissal, but are you also claiming disability discrimination?

Yes on unfair dismissal, no on any disbility discrimination

Also it would be helpful to know if your contract included entitlement to a company sick pay scheme (when you were off sick, did you just get SSP, or were you still being paid full/half pay, and how much longer would this have continued if you hadn't been dismissed).

Received full pay during my absence. Wouldve received full pay for 6 months then half pay after that.

Also what was the manner of dismissal? In other words, did they just send you your P45 in the post? Did they tell you by phone? Or did they have a meeting with you before making the final decision?

Also, at the time of your dismissal what was the likelihood of you returning to work in the forseeable future, and did you submit a doctor's letter to that effect?

When I was absent I made one return to work but only lasted just over an hour due to being in severe pain. I then made several promises of returning to work but coundnt due to (what was later understood to be) the side effects of my medications.

at this point we weernt even sure it actually was my back that was the problem, i also had problems with my bowel liver and lost about 3 stone over the course of an month as my appetite completely disappeared. so it was suspected that something else was going on. Ultimately, my medicine was changed and I had an mri that showed a herniated disc in my lower back and my health improved . during my appeal meeting i offered a doctors report but it declined as being 'not neccesary'.

The bottom line is that being off sick does not make you bullet proof. The situation and circumstances surrounding your dismissal are very relevant and although I have read through this thread I can't see that there is enough information for anyone here to be able to advise you (although I echo earlier advice that you really need to focus on what you allege the employer has done wrong in law, and not on matters which have no legal relevance, regardless of how important you think those issues should be).

I believe acas good practice states that further medical evidence should be sought, other than fit notes. is that right?