retrospective planning permission ?

blightygal

Bit cheeky writing this, but worried that we might be taking on a duck of a flat and there's a lot of folk here that seem great! Just made an offer, as we're relocating back home to London from Leeds and cant afford much, good ol' north-south price divide!

Previous owner did a loft extension without planning permission about 9-10 years ago. We have been in touch with the council about obtaining a certificate of Lawful development, but the issues we have are proving the conversion happened over 4 years ago (the time frame the council can prosecute) but more importantly, being able to find out if the work carried out complied to building regs.

I've asked the council who will not check the building regs retrospectively, and I have telephoned buildings surveyors and buildings control surveyors, all of which just pass the buck, saying they will not check the work. Anyone know how we can get this work checked? We're worried that we are setting ourselves up for potentially thousands of pounds of work to correct anything. Or should we walk away? Its a shame as we really like the flat, and it would help us out for a couple years before we upgrade.

Oh, and the guy built a garage too without planning permission, but we're not so worried about that - at least it wont affect the structure of the house!

Any advice/help be appreciated big time :-)

planning_officer

I can only answer the planning issues (many of your points are more to do with building regulations).

You don't need planning permission for a loft conversion itself - it's any external alterations that can require planning permission, such as dormer windows, rooflights etc (although these can also be permitted development a lot of the time and not require express planning permission). However, even if any works did originally require planning permission, they become immune from enforcement action after 4 years - so there's no danger of you being asked to undo any of these works by the Council's planning department. The Certificate of Lawful Development would provide a legal document confirming this, but the onus is always on the applicant (i.e. you!) to provide enough evidence to show 'on the balance of probabilities' that the work was carried out more than 4 years ago. A sworn statement from the previous owner should suffice to accompany such an application. However, that is assuming that any work did require planning permission - and it may not have done.

I'm sure someone will be along to provide advice on the Building Control issues...

blightygal

Thanks very much for your reply! Appreciated big time.

Yes, I learnt a fair bit on the net about proving the info - we are currently waiting for the owner to supply us with any photot's, plans etc. He's taking his time... I wonder why! I got in touch with redbridge council, and planning permission was needed as its a flat, not a house. Apparently flats still need permission, and also the council told me a sworn statement isnt enough evidence, sadly, as he'd agreed to do a letter. I learned the 4 year rule, but its more the actual building issues and if he did the work good enough.

Thanks a million again for taking the time out to write!

DannyboyMidlands

The lack of building regs could be a massive can of worms and personally I would walk away. At the time of doing the work it only costs a couple of hundred quid to get it inspected by the local authority so you need to ask yourself why they wouldn't have done so? Sounds like they were cutting corners.

Building regs covers soooooo many things:

Structural adequacy/stability. Did they strengthen the existing ceiling properly? How is the roof supported? Did they chop out any awkwardly placed props? How does the additional weight work it's way to the foundations?

Fire. How do you get out of the loft if the stairs are on fire? Are the roof windows adequate as a fire escape? Are fire doors priovided to stairwell?

Insulation.

Soundproofing.

Ventilation

Electrics

The list goes on.....................

I'd find a place where the vendor isn't some amateur developer looking to "add value" on the cheap. Alternatively, discount the conversion and offer on the basis that it is just a normal loft/storage space. Were you aware of the lack of BR when you made your initial offer?

Strapped

I'd get a good surveyor to take a close look at it to decide whether it's "safe" or not - that would be my only concern. Lack of PP is not a big issue if the work is old enough (we bought this place without PP for half the house :eek:)

planning_officer

blightygal wrote: »

Yes, I learnt a fair bit on the net about proving the info - we are currently waiting for the owner to supply us with any photot's, plans etc. He's taking his time... I wonder why! I got in touch with redbridge council, and planning permission was needed as its a flat, not a house. Apparently flats still need permission, and also the council told me a sworn statement isnt enough evidence, sadly, as he'd agreed to do a letter. I learned the 4 year rule, but its more the actual building issues and if he did the work good enough.

Thanks a million again for taking the time out to write!

I should have spotted that you called it a flat in your first post - I missed that! Yes, flats don't have any permitted development rights, so whilst the internal works to create a loft conversion still don't require planning permission (as internal works in most buildings are not development) - any external alterations like dormers, velux windows etc, will require planning permission.

The legal test for a Lawful Development Certificate is 'on the balance of probabilities' and this is clearly enshrined in many appeal decisions and court cases, as well as in Central Government guidance - so you don't have to prove 100% that the works were completed 4 years ago. That might sound a bit odd, but this 'test' is not as onerous as other legal tests. Unless the Council has any evidence that the works were carried out less than 4 years ago, then 'on the balance of probailities', a sworn statement (done in the presence of a solicitor, i.e. an affidavit), should suffice. If the Council don't have any contrary evidence, they have to accept the sworn statement as satisfactory evidence. The statement must be sufficiently detailed though - precise dates of when the works were undertaken from the previous owner, etc (especially when the work was completed), rather than just vague statements suggesting that the works were done 'sometime during 2007' for example. I suspect Redbridge may be trying to get some more info from you, to make it easier to grant a Certificate if you did apply, but they can't just say a sworn statement wouldn't suffice, for the simple reason that they don't know yet what the statement will say!! Just make sure it is sufficiently detailed, re. dates etc.

blightygal

Thanks everyone for all your replies, I really do appreciate you taking time out. Great place this huh?

Planning officer, thanks too for your info regarding a sworn statement. Thats very interesting, and yes, contradicts what the council said. They told me it was up to my partner and I to build a case up, proving the conversion happened some time ago - and what you write is some help indeed.

However, after a week of waiting for some kind of evidence from the vendor, it seems that we may have to seriously reconsider. He's not done a thing, which if all was well, he'd have done something by now, as he wants to sell after all! I think that we are better to be wary now, and stay away. Its a real shame, as looking at all the other DIY he has done, its a really high standard, but due to his silence, we suspect he's cut too many corners on the loft.

Thanks again for all advice and expertise, its been so helpful and a real learning curve! Cheers :-)