Alternative to Storage Heaters

rogerblack

chris1973 wrote: »

You'd be better advised to take this up with the R&D department of the manufacturer of these heaters in order to discuss the more technical side of their design in order to get a more qualified answer. All I have done is to quote verbatim from the literature which accompanies the heater, and speak from my actual experience of using one as a primary source of heat, in that it creates zero condensaton in the room or property.

Have you compared it to another model of parafin heater, with a fan to distribute the heat?

I did not say that it will cause condensation - but that it will emit exactly the same amount of water per unit fuel.
It's going to - it absolutely can't do anything else.
Paraffin has a fixed amount of carbon and hydrogen per litre.
This is all it's made from.
The carbon is burned with oxygen to make carbon dioxide, the hydrogen to make hydrogen dioxide - water.
You can't with simple combustion - do otherwise.
You can in principle condense this water out into a bucket for the user to remove, but you absolutely can't stop it being emitted in some form.

A fan to distribute the heat will mean that the room is more evenly heated - which may act to reduce condensation and spread the moisture around. It still exists though, and in some properties will cause a problem.

pothole50

Thanks for all the info on paraffin heaters, unfortunately after ringing around hardware stores and a few garages in Leicester the best prices I could get was between £7.99 -£6.25 for prepacked 4 litres, I did find somewhere that sold it loose for £1.65/litre, and that based with figures on here of 1 litre giving 10kw that would cost me 16.5p/kw, until I can get this figure below the 10p/kw I am paying for electricity its no longer an option, but very interesting reading.

grahamc2003

rogerblack wrote: »

I did not say that it will cause condensation - but that it will emit exactly the same amount of water per unit fuel.
It's going to - it absolutely can't do anything else.
Paraffin has a fixed amount of carbon and hydrogen per litre.
This is all it's made from.
The carbon is burned with oxygen to make carbon dioxide, the hydrogen to make hydrogen dioxide - water.
You can't with simple combustion - do otherwise.
You can in principle condense this water out into a bucket for the user to remove, but you absolutely can't stop it being emitted in some form.

.

That's right, apart from the hydrogen dioxide, which should be dihydrogen monoxide, which is water.

Chris, don't know why you appear to be getting narked - the water emitted is a very serious consideration when buying these heaters. A house suffering from damp already will be made much worse with an extra litre or two of water in the air each day (and, tbc, you don't have to own one to know the chemistry of hydrocarbon combustion - if you burn a hydrocarbon (i.e. paraffin) you'll get water, plus co2 if you're lucky and co if you're not). In your case, the water emitted doesn't cause you any problems - but that won't be the case for everybody. I can rule them out for me for this reason alone. I expect the next development will be to condense out the water from the exhaust gasses before they are emitted into the room - I doubt that would be too difficult, but even then you're left with CO2 going into your room, which aint great. I'd also make sure I had a very good CO monitor, just in case.

What's the cost/kWh when using branded paraffin? Is it cheaper than normal electricity rates?

Richie-from-the-Boro

See #23

I said £80 per month, I've just been to my online account and have noticed that the SP Accountancy BOT has decided that my CAC can be reduced to £67 per month, I won't bother changing it because :

- I know its there
- I can make it up if and when

It is however too low, £13 quid a month seems like a saving to some reading this, but getting caught for a one off £150 [arrears / underpayment] per annum is a figure some reading these pages might not be able to deal with.

rogerblack

<snip>
Air-to-air Heat Pump systems can be supplied & installed to either deal with a single room or several rooms, and they'll run off the same power supply that serves your n/s/h without any up-grade. Not only that but they'll do so at over 300% efficiency!

Neglecting the spam link, this raises an important point.

Yes, heat pumps are useful.
For some with unpredictable lifestyles, the storage heat may be largely wasted.
_However_.
If you have a significant heating load, such that it forms a large part of your bill, then it's rather less clear than the rosy picture painted above.

Taking as a random figure, a house with 10000 units of storage heater use per year, and 2000 daytime, the bill is 960 quid.
The night units are charged at 6p/kWh.
This is around half of daytime prices.

The heatpump therefore needs to start out with a base efficiency of about two times, to break even.

Unfortunately, many cheaper heatpumps, will not manage this as the average temperature falls much below 10C or so.
The output of the heatpump also drops with temperature.

Then there is the issue of reliability.
Storage heater life is likely to exceed comfortably 30 years, with minimal maintainance - for example, changing thermostats.

Air conditioners have considerably more moving parts, and getting a warranty exceeding 5 years is fairly rare.

Are there very good heatpumps that will provide returns in this situation - certainly!

http://toshiba-aircon.co.uk/assets/uploads/product_assets/RAS%20107_137_167SKV-E3%20Avant.pdf - for example - page 14 - a 4kW heatpump.

At 7C, and half output, it produces about 4 times the heat as electricity used, at the same power at 0C, about 2.5.

At full output, this falls a little.

The above however is 700 quid.
The saving will be perhaps a third, and likely three would be needed.
A saving of at best 300 quid per annum, for an investment of 2100 or so.

This is clearly not a 'rip them all out tomorrow' solution for everyone.
Especially as the above only comes with a 3 year warranty.

jalexa

Get up to speed (but probably not temperature) here...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b010vzmv

rogerblack

jalexa wrote: »

Get up to speed (but probably not temperature) here...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b010vzmv

Err - why link to a program that cannot be accessed?

Properly sized and specified heatpumps can be an economic option.
It's quite possible to install ones which are more expensive both in use and in installation than - for example storage heaters though.

I note for example that there are heat pumps out there that are quoting 'up to 5.5 times the heat of electricity!'.
While this is strictly true, it's when the outside is warmer than the inside, and an open window would do it for free.

jalexa

rogerblack wrote: »

Err - why link to a program that cannot be accessed?

That's a pity. I remembered the programme and trusted the BBC website. Perhaps the question needs to be put to the BBC Online webmaster.

rogerblack

jalexa wrote: »

That's a pity. I remembered the programme and trusted the BBC website. Perhaps the question needs to be put to the BBC Online webmaster.

Nearly all programmes on the BBC are only available online for a limited period, usually a week.
It's not a problem with the website, but a policy decision.