Free and Cheap Insulation Official Discussion

John_Pierpoint

damianmarksmyth wrote: »

The energy companies have all but stopped giving out free grants for loft insulation now.

But there is a company in Cornwall who have set up a depot in Wiltshire and have funding to continue offering the free grants until December 31st before the Government’s ‘Green Deal’ kicks in.

The new Green Deal in 2013 will be paid back as a loan through your bills, so it is NOT free. The current grants ARE free, even if you are able to pay…

The qualification is simple.
If your loft has insulation less than 200mm
If your house was built pre 2009
If the loft area is less than 100m squared
If the loft hatch is big enough for installers to fit into
If you can empty your loft for the installation (2 weeks lead time)

Then you can have the free insulation.
Your bills could reduce by up to £175 per year… FOR FREE!

The installers work on 5 installs per day, so if there are five of you and your friends locally who qualify, then they will come and do the install.

Email me if you would like to sign up for this (damianmarksmyth@damianmarksmyth.com).

The added benefit is that, once you are on the system, you will also qualify for the free cavity wall insulation plus a replacement boilers (if over 15 years old).

These grants do not run out until June next year.

My understanding is that the insulation has to be in the loft by 31st December AND the paperwork has to be completed before 1st January.
Given the vagaries or the postal system, it really means the insulation would need to be in the loft before Xmas.
[It feels a bit like this time last year, when friend of mine drove an hour and a half down the motorway to hand in his Feed in Tariff paperwork for PV panels on his roof]

For those of you having polystyrene bead pumped into your cavity walls, here is a little warning:

Lunchtime Day 1, two guys arrived in a big van towing a compressor. I don't think the leader was a guy who was proud of his job - did not give the impression that he had read "Zen and the art of Motor Cycle Maintenance" - so off they went.
They were expected to drill and fill a large 4 bed semi, with 5 roof slopes, AND put the nice new insulation in the naked loft.
Fortunately, the home owner had done all the prep work for them:
- Sealed the tops of the cavities with fiberglass
- Sleeved the suspended floor's air bricks.
Though putting in the "bottle brush" between the two halves of the building was still down to the installers.
One man raced off ahead drilling while the other got the pump and and glue mixer going (it was styrene "bead" being used).
Then a second van arrived with the insulation rolls for the loft.
The team of two promptly found fault with their pump and switched to insulating the loft.- conveniently finishing at 16:10.

Good thing really, as it gave a chance to compare the pattern of holes with the "Agrement" certificate on-line.

http://www.bbacerts.co.uk/certificates.aspx?ca=Blown-in+Cavity+Wall+Insulation&ob=0&pg=1&

For some reason, the hole spacing under the eaves differs in different company's specifications but it is about 700 mm on average.
"Domestic & General" (for example) using "Therma bead diamond" has a good detailed certificate with diagrams of how it should be done..

It was self evident that some hole spacing was erratic.

The next day a van and a sole operative arrived at 12:45

After the normal pleasantries, we walked the job and discussed where his "colleagues" had got to the day before:

- So what is the specification for drilling the holes under the eaves.

"Specification?"

- Yes specification - how far apart should the holes be?

"Mumble mumble".

- Yes what is the distance between the holes?

"There is nothing wrong with those holes"

- So what is the distance between the holes ?

"Are you criticising my work ?"

- You have not done any work yet - those holes were drilled by your colleagues.

"Trust me I've been doing this work for 6 years - there is nothing wrong with those holes"

- I don't need to trust you, I just need you to tell me the specification for drilling the holes.

"Every three bricks"

- The walls are rendered, but that is about this distance? [Underestimating by about a foot :-)] .

"You expect me to measure the distance between the holes with a tape measure?"

- No, that is not necessary, but I do expect you to know the distance between holes, for example you are about the same size as me, and my shoulder to finger tip is 700 mm.
[That is roughly three bricks :-)]

" Do you know the pressure of my pump?"

- I tell you what, you do it to your standard and when you are finished, we will drill another hole mid way between any two widely spaced holes up at the eaves line and if the cavity is full of bead, then I am stupidly worrying about nothing, if not there will be more holes to drill.
There is nothing personal about this - I just want the job done properly.

[Funny thing, the house later reverberated to the sound of drilling and a few new holes appeared, especially one in the cold NE corner, where there was a self evident 920 mm gap between two holes.]

What is it about some people that makes them instantly try to convert a discussion into an "ad hominem" personal aggressive response?

Guilt perhaps?

I think the major problem is the structure of the industry.

The "surveyor" is a commission driven salesman, who could be working for more than one organisation, would sign up a garden shed it he thought it would sign the paperwork.
In this case it took four attempts to find an installer (the fibre boys rightly realised that the cavities extended under the earth and damp course ) the other styrene surveyor was flaffing about getting a head office decision.

Nobody had bothered to realise that the air bricks were not sleeved and that the cavities were open topped [thus converting the cavity wall into a chimney with half a brick thickness between the freezing outside air and the inside of the rooms. Do surveyors do crawling about in lofts, poking into air bricks with a wire, let alone asking if it is possible to crawl under the ground floor?!

Then the installers arrive, also being paid by the job, with no effective supervision and sanction.

I don't believe you can inspect in quality, but I am sure that lack of supervision and inspection, soon means the bad drives out the good.

malc_b

Hi,

My mother qualified for free loft insulation being over 80 so this was done in July/Aug. We've now just had the first cold snap and the cold water tank looks to be freezing up. The cold water tank is on stilts to give a larger water head. There is about 3 foot of free air underneath the tank so I I don't see better insulation on the cold water tank is going to do anything. The tank will approach the same temperature as the loft air over time. The only thing to raise the temperature will be the cold water coming in which is not that warm when it is freezing outside.

The only approach that will work I reckon is to add an anti-frost pipe heater run off the electric. But legally who is responsible to do this work? The cause of the problem is the extra loft insulation. I would have thought that this can't be the first house to have this problem and it something the fitting company should have considered and sorted when insulating the loft. But what are your rights when a govenment grant paid for the work?

gazchaz

Hi malc,

Did the installers install the insulation underneath the cold water tank?
There should not be any insulation directly below the water tank, as this will prevent warm air getting to the tank to prevent freezing.

If this is the case I would get them back to sort this and wrap the insulation around the stilts creating, in effect, a tunnel to allow the warm air to rise to the water tank.

Im guessing the tank has a jacket on it already?

Hope that makes sense and helps you.

John_Pierpoint

You will probably spend more time in hassle getting them back to clear the bottom of the tank and then incorporate that and its attendant pipework on the warm side of the insulation; than you would spend doing the job yourself.

Loft laggers are probably not the sharpest tools in the tool box and this just illustrates my point about the need to "supervise" the cowboys.
What are you going to do if there is a cold snap over Xmas and mum comes back to a house with the ceilings on the floor?

malc_b

I think it is less effort to add a heating cable than boxing in the bottom of tank to the floor. But I've had a look at the tank (plastic so that can't burst if it freezes) and the lagging is pretty thin. It claims 60mm but it is fibre glass in black plastic tied up with string, so where the string pulls tight it is near zero. And yes they did staple insulation to the underside of the platform but as that is 3 foot above the ceiling I reckon that does want to be insulated from the cold loft air.

I reckon that with better insulation it might be ok. There is a large (22mm?) copper pipe feeding out and the same feeding in. They should conduct heat from the house up to the tank. So if it is better insulated it shouldn't freeze. I think adding a better jacket should be within the skill set of the loft laggers so we'll see if they'll come back and do that since it is their mistake.

sheffield_lad

malc_b wrote: »

I think adding a better jacket should be within the skill set of the loft laggers so we'll see if they'll come back and do that since it is their mistake.

What's their mistake? They have made your mums home warmer, if your intelligent enough to find an issue I am sure your bright enough to do this yourself.

Stop moaning and get it sorted out it was free !!!!!!

malc_b

howee wrote: »

What's their mistake? They have made your mums home warmer, if your intelligent enough to find an issue I am sure your bright enough to do this yourself.

Stop moaning and get it sorted out it was free !!!!!!

Depends on your point of view. We pay taxes, the gov take these and pay the laggers who have not done a proper job which they have been paid for. Also, I'd rather they used their time, I'm up to my eyeballs in my own diy.

thor

John_Pierpoint wrote: »

The salesman may well be commission only.
The free installation stops officially on 01jan13.
Officially speaking the person signing the paperwork probably needs power of attorney from the owner/landlord; but I doubt anyone in this final rush would notice a signature of M. Mouse.

My mum came back from overseas months earlier than planned(but after the initial loft survey) and a date has been set for the insulation to be installed in mid January. I questioned the company over the phone about the government withdrawing free grants at the start of 2013and was told that they have reversed their decision and will be offering free insulation again. Is this true?

perfecta1

John_Pierpoint wrote: »

Here are the terms and conditions:
http://www.britishgas.co.uk/products-and-services/energy-saving/home-insulation/terms-and-conditions.html

Exactly what are the restrictions that apply to your potential installation and when were you told about them?

Eligibility Criteria

To qualify for free insulation you need to be in receipt one of the following:

• State Pension Credit

OR

• Are you eligible for Child Tax Credit and income less than £15,860 per year

OR one of the following

• Income based Jobs Seeker’s Allowance
• Income support
• Income Related Employment Support Allowance
• Working tax credit and has relevant income of £15,860 or less per year

I was told in October that I do not qualify as I do not have any of them (although I work part time only and pay huge mortgage on my house) :cool:

John_Pierpoint

That sounds like the standard list of government rules, which have been in place for several years.

However the power companies also had an obligation (or face more tax/restrictions on their prices) to achieve more energy saving, hence the give-aways of compact fluorescent light bulbs and in 2012 free insulation:

In an attempt to achieve these targets there were lots of cheap insulation and subsidised installations on offer last autumn. My son got the loft lagged and the cavity walls injected on his 1930 house for free about a month ago [He is more worried about losing child tax credit than claiming any cash benefits].
There were lots of "spam" phone calls offering these extra cheap/free deals in the autumn - you had to do your homework to sort out the sheep from the goats.

There is a lot of confusion about what will be happening now that we have passed the end of year deadline and the "green deal" (loan) is theoretically on offer.

Any expert want to comment on the situation during 2013 ?