Would you invest in nuclear fusion?

raider

rogerblack wrote: »

Mainstream reports mean very little other than the reporters find something they think the audience has an interest in.
The amount of knowledge most reporters have on science-based topics is very small, and they usually simply rehash press-releases, with comments from random people they buttonhole that seem like they might know something.
Fact-checking is almost gone.

I agree Roger. Most of these mainstream articles have been produced using 2nd hand information with plenty of inaccuracies.

But the fact that the ecat/LENR has caught some mainstream attention after being ignored for so long is a good thing IMO.

raider

Article from the Swedish newspaper NyTeknik who have been covering the ecat for some time now.

http://www.nyteknik.se/nyheter/energi_miljo/energi/article3347150.ece

zeupater

raider wrote: »

Article from the Swedish newspaper NyTeknik who have been covering the ecat for some time now.

http://www.nyteknik.se/nyheter/energi_miljo/energi/article3347150.ece

Hi

And the key point of all that is ...

"Several semipublic tests have been made to demonstrate the release of net energy but no independent tests have yet been done.

On October 28, 2011, a heat plant composed by 107 Ecat modules was tested by an anonymous customer. In a report the customer claimed a released net power of 479 kW in self sustained mode."

If the technology works then there are plenty of independent establishments and universities which are fully able to check the claims .... a sustained 479kW (net) would be extraordinary and would have governments all over the world clamouring to get hold of test units, with the EU in particular shovelling euros into development by the tonne ..... I'm pretty sure that as the project isn't attracting public funding of any kind, from anywhere, there is something to be a little suspicious about .... doesn't 'semipublic' really say it all, select the audience and of course it works.

If a demonstration unit works then there would be every reason to demonstrate that it works and have it confirmed to be working by a trusted and fully independent body ....

HTH
Z

pete22

http://www.e-catworld.com/2011/11/rossi-refuses-new-test-offer-confirms-first-customer-as-military-agency-which-has-ordered-13-more-units/

If the above article is true, then someone's public funding is now being used.

raider

zeupater

Maybe this course from MIT might help you.

Cold Fusion 101: Introduction to Excess Power in Fleischmann-Pons Experiments

http://student.mit.edu/iap/nc9.html

zeupater

raider wrote: »

zeupater

Maybe this course from MIT might help you.

Cold Fusion 101: Introduction to Excess Power in Fleischmann-Pons Experiments

http://student.mit.edu/iap/nc9.html

Love it .....

"Excess power production in the Fleischmann-Pons experiment; lack of confirmation in early negative experiments; theoretical problems and Huizenga's three miracles; physical chemistry of PdD; electrochemistry of PdD; loading requirements on excess power production; the nuclear ash problem and He-4 observations; approaches to theory; screening in PdD; PdD as an energetic particle detector; constraints on the alpha energy from experiment; overview of theoretical approaches; coherent energy exchange between mismatched quantum systems; coherent x-rays in the Karabut experiment and interpretation; excess power in the NiH system; Piantelli experiment; prospects for a new small scale clean nuclear energy technology.

On 1/30 and 1/31 M. Swartz will discuss results he has obtained from a variety of cold fusion experiments he has done over the years. He has observed excess power in PdD and in NiH experiments; typical energy gains in the range of 2-3 are seen, with a few experiments giving higher energy gain; he has carried out a demonstration of his experiment previously at MIT; and energy produced from cold fusion reactions has been used to drive a Stirling engine. "

... what really needs to be considered is that there have been 'demonstrations of' perpetual motion machines in the past which have been quite convincing too ! .... there will always be believers, let them believe

The issue is that whatever I've seen to date on this suggests that there is a requirement for energy input to create heat and whatever is happening in 'cold fusion' creates more heat than the energy input .... the text above suggests 'typical energy gains in the range of 2-3 are seen' and the earlier referenced site suggests a COP of 6 is possible, so as it stands that's a heat energy gain which is comparible to heat pumps operating in ideal conditions, so not really the panacea to global energy issues which it seems to be conveyed as being by some ....

If 'cold fusion' is real then it's really of little use unless the process can be made self sufficient ... ie - the heat generated by the reaction can be harnessed to generate the energy required to drive the reaction ...... this would be a little like the energy captured by an ASHP generating the electricity to power the ASHP ..... both being conditions which are a little too close to a description of perpetual motion for my liking.

In conclusion, anyone who could prove that 'cold fusion' could work on a commercially viable scale and industrialised the process would probably become the most famous individual of our times and their name would rank alongside Einstein, Darwin, Newton, Edison and numerous other revered names from history ...... forget DNA as being the biggest recent breakthrough, this would totally eclipse almost everything else, ever. Context described, so we have a situation where the inventor would achieve instantaneous fame and likely wealth beyond the dreams of even the dotcom billionaires if the technology could be patented, but even the fame would bring massive wealth for lecture tours etc .... so why be so coy, what's missing, why is there no peer review ? .....

A sterling engine ? ..... :rotfl: ..... well that really fills me with hope ... what size was it ? :rotfl:

HTH
Z

whasup

zeupater wrote: »

Love it .....

"Excess power production in the Fleischmann-Pons experiment; lack of confirmation in early negative experiments; theoretical problems and Huizenga's three miracles; physical chemistry of PdD; electrochemistry of PdD; loading requirements on excess power production; the nuclear ash problem and He-4 observations; approaches to theory; screening in PdD; PdD as an energetic particle detector; constraints on the alpha energy from experiment; overview of theoretical approaches; coherent energy exchange between mismatched quantum systems; coherent x-rays in the Karabut experiment and interpretation; excess power in the NiH system; Piantelli experiment; prospects for a new small scale clean nuclear energy technology.

On 1/30 and 1/31 M. Swartz will discuss results he has obtained from a variety of cold fusion experiments he has done over the years. He has observed excess power in PdD and in NiH experiments; typical energy gains in the range of 2-3 are seen, with a few experiments giving higher energy gain; he has carried out a demonstration of his experiment previously at MIT; and energy produced from cold fusion reactions has been used to drive a Stirling engine. "

... what really needs to be considered is that there have been 'demonstrations of' perpetual motion machines in the past which have been quite convincing too ! .... there will always be believers, let them believe

The issue is that whatever I've seen to date on this suggests that there is a requirement for energy input to create heat and whatever is happening in 'cold fusion' creates more heat than the energy input .... the text above suggests 'typical energy gains in the range of 2-3 are seen' and the earlier referenced site suggests a COP of 6 is possible, so as it stands that's a heat energy gain which is comparible to heat pumps operating in ideal conditions, so not really the panacea to global energy issues which it seems to be conveyed as being by some ....

If 'cold fusion' is real then it's really of little use unless the process can be made self sufficient ... ie - the heat generated by the reaction can be harnessed to generate the energy required to drive the reaction ...... this would be a little like the energy captured by an ASHP generating the electricity to power the ASHP ..... both being conditions which are a little too close to a description of perpetual motion for my liking.

In conclusion, anyone who could prove that 'cold fusion' could work on a commercially viable scale and industrialised the process would probably become the most famous individual of our times and their name would rank alongside Einstein, Darwin, Newton, Edison and numerous other revered names from history ...... forget DNA as being the biggest recent breakthrough, this would totally eclipse almost everything else, ever. Context described, so we have a situation where the inventor would achieve instantaneous fame and likely wealth beyond the dreams of even the dotcom billionaires if the technology could be patented, but even the fame would bring massive wealth for lecture tours etc .... so why be so coy, what's missing, why is there no peer review ? .....

A sterling engine ? ..... :rotfl: ..... well that really fills me with hope ... what size was it ? :rotfl:

HTH
Z

Do you have any theories as to how the scam works? I'm struggling at the moment to see how Rossi could possibly get away with it. If the device doesn't work then the first purchaser - which appears to be the US Navy - is probably going to notice. What then?

cepheus

It's incredible what crap people can sell. Do you remember this fake explosive detector?

The ADE-651 detector has never been shown to work in a scientific test.
There are no batteries and it consists of a swivelling aerial mounted to a hinge on a hand-grip. Critics have likened it to a glorified dowsing rod.

Mr McCormick told the BBC in a previous interview that "the theory behind dowsing and the theory behind how we actually detect explosives is very similar".

He says that the key to it is the black box connected to the aerial into which you put "programmed substance detection cards", each "designed to tune into" the frequency of a particular explosive or other substance named on the card.

He claims that in ideal conditions you can detect explosives from a range of up to 1km.

The training manual for the device says it can even, with the right card, detect elephants, humans and 100 dollar bills...

It contained nothing but the type of anti-theft tag used to prevent stealing in high street stores.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/newsnight/8471187.stm

As if we hadn't killed enough Iraqi's. This was sold to their security services!

zeupater

whasup wrote: »

Do you have any theories as to how the scam works? I'm struggling at the moment to see how Rossi could possibly get away with it. If the device doesn't work then the first purchaser - which appears to be the US Navy - is probably going to notice. What then?

Hi

I have absolutely no idea, but if you give me enough money I'll build a 5kW demonstration 'reactor' for you which would achieve a COP of 3 in my garage out of washing-up bottles and sticky-back plastic with a 'secret ingredient' inside (which would be a 5kW ASHP) and of course a mp3 hifi system to make the appropriate 'gurgle', 'pop' and 'whirring' noises which would be expected .... If you would like a smaller scale and cheaper demonstration I could quite easily create a measurable exothermic reaction based on a well known catalysed process involving fusion using a supersaturated solution along with the same washing up bottle & SBP, a couple of handwarmers anyone ? ..... logic dictates that sawing a lady in half is but an illusion, however, when well staged it certainly can look very convincing ...

Appearing to be the US Navy seems to be very convenient, I've seen the claim that the first sale is to a 'military agency' and they have subsequently ordered 13 more, but interpreting this as being to any particular country, let alone arm of their military is a little far fetched .... isn't it just a little possible that the rumour-mill is just what is required to sustain a drive for 'investment' .....

HTH
Z

whasup

We can only go by what we see reported. I have no idea if it's the US Navy or even if there is any purchaser at all. But that's not the point. The point is, if things continue as they are, there will be purchasers and some of them will be well qualified to assess the device. If it's not what it says on the tin they aren't going to just stick it in the back of the garage forget it. So if it is a scam how does it work? (the scam I mean) I can't see an answer at the moment.