speed limits

NBLondon

DirectDebacle wrote: »

Its your concentation that is lacking. If there is a numpty in lane 1 why are you considering an overtake on the left?

Nope - it's your reading that's lacking. If there is traffic in both Lanes 1 and 2 paralleling each other, I'm not considering an overtake at all - I'm not a biker y'know. In the model I'm discussing, Bongles has continued past in the left lane after due observation and I am considering the fact that this action might cause the "unpredictable" driver to move left and taking more observation before I decide to do the same.

DirectDebacle wrote: »

As we are discussing a 2 lane motorway there is no middle lane.

Several pages ago, people were discussing a 2 lane motorway. I've never encountered this situation on a 2 lane motorway so didn't comment then.

I'm picking up from Lum's description of a 3 lane motorway situation where moving from 1 to 2 to 3 to pass lane 2 might be more dangerous because of high-speed traffic in 2 and 3.

DirectDebacle wrote: »

Unless you are telepathic or have the gift of second sight you have no idea why they are in that lane, how long they will stay in it or what they will do next.

As lindopski pointed out a few posts ago; you add previous experience to current observation to make a judgement.

DirectDebacle wrote: »

It is foolhardy to overtake when you believe the driver in front is unaware of your intention without first making an effort to make them aware.

If we were discussing Strider's stealth overtake (TM) then that's a valid point. On a motorway less so. If the driver is so unaware of their surroundings that they have not noticed an empty lane to their left, I suspect they are probably equally unaware of whether anyone wishes to overtake in any manner. The likelihood of them changing lanes to the left without use of mirrors is probably equal to them braking because they have dropped a Werther's original.

Perhaps the safest option then is to leave at the next exit, take an alternative route and rejoin the motorway ahead of them?

mikey72

cyclonebri1 wrote: »

You need to go back Mikey chap and see what I posted earlier, it is so the reverse of what you are assumming as to be un reconcilable.

Methinks I said earlier the guy in the 2nd/middle lane may move at anytime, hence the issue to be aware and fully alert??

I agree you need to be, because I won't see you, and I've said that all the way through.

DirectDebacle

NBLondon wrote: »

Nope - it's your reading that's lacking. If there is traffic in both Lanes 1 and 2 paralleling each other, I'm not considering an overtake at all - I'm not a biker y'know. In the model I'm discussing, Bongles has continued past in the left lane after due observation and I am considering the fact that this action might cause the "unpredictable" driver to move left and taking more observation before I decide to do the same.
Several pages ago, people were discussing a 2 lane motorway. I've never encountered this situation on a 2 lane motorway so didn't comment then.

I'm picking up from Lum's description of a 3 lane motorway situation where moving from 1 to 2 to 3 to pass lane 2 might be more dangerous because of high-speed traffic in 2 and 3.

Ok we are at cross purposes then. I have only posted on the original scenario (set by Bongles I think) of overtaking on the left on a 2 lane motorway.

I hadn't realised that you had changed the goalposts by commenting on a different scenario mentioned by a different poster. As you were quoting my posts in your replies it wasn't clear to me that you were referring to someone elses posts and a different set of circumstances.

As I have spent some time posting about overtaking on the left of a 2 lane motorway, what is your opinion on doing that. IIRC Bongles scenario was there was little or no traffic other than the numpty in lane 2 and the following and faster travelling vehicle in lane 1.

NBLondon

DirectDebacle wrote: »

As I have spent some time posting about overtaking on the left of a 2 lane motorway, what is your opinion on doing that. IIRC Bongles scenario was there was little or no traffic other than the numpty in lane 2 and the following and faster travelling vehicle in lane 1.

Fair enough...

I've never seen that situation - I don't know of any 2-lane motorways that I drive on and I've never seen it on a 2-lane dual carriageway either.

I would probably be more suspicious about why they were staying out when Lane 1 was empty; on a 3-lane, it's not uncommon to see people holding Lane 2 for various reasons (fear of a far distant HGV). So I'd hang back a bit longer before deciding.

The point I was trying to make is:

Various people (including you) were suggesting that the Lane 2 driver might suddenly move back to Lane 1 without looking or indicating. Yes - that's possible but why would that happen at the very point I'm continuing past? However, if someone has just done it (I nominated Bongles) then that might remind numpty they were in Lane 2 - so for me as the second car continuing in Lane 1, I have to be more careful.

Is this any different for 2 and 3-lane motorways? Dunno.

If there's a junction anywhere near - I'm definitely not going to do it because of the chances of the numpty recognising it as their turning and swinging left. There are enough who do that from Lane 3 as well.

And to bring it back to the topic!

If speed limits are raised that might increase the likelihood of Lum's 3-lane version where going from 1 to 2 to 3 around the numpty is harder because of the speed merchants closing fast in Lane 3.

I don't know what it does to the 2-lane scenario. Possibly while you are trying to safely wake up the numpty to move over; the speed merchant decides to tailgate you or (and I have seen this!) undertakes both.

cyclonebri1

Bongles wrote: »

Like everybody, there is undoubtedly scope for me to improve my driving - on motorways and everywhere else. Thus far, in the further training I've taken, including (but not limited) to motorway driving, I've not yet encountered a coach/trainer/instructor who advocated driving by rote over driving by reason.

I've just reread some of this as it has gone off and back on topic several times, but having read the above it now appears that Bongles is a relatively new driver?? , (by the additional training details).
It was something I suspected and that's without offence to him/her, but it does show the naivety and expected invinceability that many new drivers display.

You did criticise me for talking about 3 lanes as against 2, but my posts in this topic was considering those options that had already been talked of before you 1st posted.

Now I thought I'd posted this in already in this topic but maybe not. This is perfectly true and happened only a few weeks ago. As I hinted in an earlier post I'm no angel and have, out of frustration, taken the insider line. Had I been driving there would have been a multi vehicle pile up in this case :eek:
Driving up the M1, approaching J28.
For those that know it it's where the recently widened 4 lane section becomes 3 lanes. Lane 1 becomes exit only about a mile before the exit slip.
We were in lane 2 after passing traffic and moved to lane 1.
Infront of us in lane 2 is a woman in a small hatch, she has an hgv about 5yds in front and another directly parallel to her in lane 3.
The 2 hgv is failing to pass the 1 in front, (which is I guess why she got in the sandwich in the 1st place) and although he signalled he failed to see her to the side and pulled straight into her lane. She swerved straight across us before passing the lorry in front on the inside and rejoining. She couldn't have done anything else.
Now had I been driving, yep I would probably have accelarated as we moved into the exit lane, (not the slip road remember). There would definately have been a collision. But I wasn't driving, my mate was, and he had decided to take the cautious approach and hold a steady speed.

The point I'm trying to make is that there is added risk in passing on the left, even if you aren't directly responsible for any coming together.

DirectDebacle

I've never seen that situation - I don't know of any 2-lane motorways that I drive on and I've never seen it on a 2-lane dual carriageway either.

See posts 142/143 p 8.

I would probably be more suspicious about why they were staying out when Lane 1 was empty; on a 3-lane, it's not uncommon to see people holding Lane 2 for various reasons (fear of a far distant HGV). So I'd hang back a bit longer before deciding.

You could be more usefully spending this time in lane 2 persuading the hogger to move. We are dicussing 2 lanes motorways. On a 3 lane you would just overtake in lane 3.

The point I was trying to make is:

Various people (including you) were suggesting that the Lane 2 driver might suddenly move back to Lane 1 without looking or indicating. Yes - that's possible but why would that happen at the very point I'm continuing past?

You really don't have a clue do you. Why would you take the chance when the risk of that happening can be totally eliminated?

However, if someone has just done it (I nominated Bongles) then that might remind numpty they were in Lane 2 - so for me as the second car continuing in Lane 1, I have to be more careful.

Which should give you even more of a reason not to overtake on the left and position yourself behind the vehicle in lane 2.

Is this any different for 2 and 3-lane motorways? Dunno.

Well you should know. You should know it will be at least as risky as on a 2 lane motorway, probably more as the numpty may be overtaken by vehicles in lane 3 and also have someone behind them in lane 2 trying to shift them to lane 1. In addition there is the additional risk of being sideswiped as you complete your left lane overtake, by a vehicle from lane 3 moving to the apparently empty lane 1.

If there's a junction anywhere near - I'm definitely not going to do it because of the chances of the numpty recognising it as their turning and swinging left. There are enough who do that from Lane 3 as well.

So you think that is an unacceptable risk because the numpty might take a junction exit from lane 2 but there is no risk of a numpty lane change because you are overtaking on the left?

Maybe the driver isn't a numpty. Maybe he is basically a good driver who has moved from lane 1 to lane 2 in anticipation of traffic joining the road from the slipway the other side of the junction. Perhaps a bit too early for your liking but another reason why you should be in lane 2.

And to bring it back to the topic!

If speed limits are raised that might increase the likelihood of Lum's 3-lane version where going from 1 to 2 to 3 around the numpty is harder because of the speed merchants closing fast in Lane 3.

If you like to drive fast and haven't the skill to safely move from lane 1 to lane 3 then you are probably not fit to drive on motorways and are driving on them at speeds beyond your capabilities.

I don't know what it does to the 2-lane scenario. Possibly while you are trying to safely wake up the numpty to move over; the speed merchant decides to tailgate you or (and I have seen this!) undertakes both.

Shouldn't present any problem to a good driver.

Reading this may be of some help. A bit dated but still relevant.

almillar

mikey:

The usual reason is if I'm overtaking several vehicles, or groups of vehicles.
If the gap is a bit big between them, do I move in, then try to get out again?

YES - that's what you do. After checking your mirrors of course. If you're doing it right, there won't be a Mr Undertaker, because he won't have time to undercut. We're not talking about weaving of course.

cylconebri1:

The point I'm trying to make is that there is added risk in passing on the left, even if you aren't directly responsible for any coming together.

Got it in one!

NBLondon

DirectDebacle wrote: »

See posts 142/143 p 8.

No need to... I said I haven't seen the scenario because I don't use any 2-lane motorways. I'm not disputing that others have.

DirectDebacle wrote: »

You really don't have a clue do you. Why would you take the chance when the risk of that happening can be totally eliminated?

Eliminated by substituting a different risk? I'll judge my risks - you judge yours OK?

DirectDebacle wrote: »

Which should give you even more of a reason not to overtake on the left and position yourself behind the vehicle in lane 2.

Nope - it gives me a reason to take more observation and judge the risk. I don't do the "continue in lane 1" manoeuvre every time - only when I judge it less risky than other alternatives.

DirectDebacle wrote: »

Well you should know. You should know it will be at least as risky as on a 2 lane motorway,

I'm talking about the likelihood of there being someone numpty-ish enough to a) drive in the overtaking lane when the left lane is empty and b) change back to the left lane with no obvious reason or warning. I don't know for sure because I don't drive on any 2-lane motorways and haven't seen any examples.

DirectDebacle wrote: »

probably more as the numpty may be overtaken by vehicles in lane 3 and also have someone behind them in lane 2 trying to shift them to lane 1. In addition there is the additional risk of being sideswiped as you complete your left lane overtake, by a vehicle from lane 3 moving to the apparently empty lane 1.

Now you're changing the conditions. The more vehicles there are in sight, the more likely I am to reduce speed until the situation clears. If someone else is in lane 2; they are presumably overtaking me. That would definitely increase the likelihood of numpty panicking and swinging into lane 1 and that's what I'm judging here.

DirectDebacle wrote: »

So you think that is an unacceptable risk because the numpty might take a junction exit from lane 2 but there is no risk of a numpty lane change because you are overtaking on the left?

Not that there's no risk but observing them and judging that risk. The presence of a junction increases that risk. The presence of a previous driver to their left also increases the risk. (I think I've said that 3 times now). I judge the risk at the time.

DirectDebacle wrote: »

Maybe the driver isn't a numpty. Maybe he is basically a good driver who has moved from lane 1 to lane 2 in anticipation of traffic joining the road from the slipway the other side of the junction. Perhaps a bit too early for your liking but another reason why you should be in lane 2.

Since I've already said I wouldn't do it in the vicinity of a junction; he's done this over a mile before any necessity to do so. So I've got at least a mile of clear lane 1 in which to continue driving, look for the entry slip road and any traffic on it and decide whether I need/want to move to Lane 2 safely some way ahead of the (non)numpty. You would rather be behind him and communicate psychically that's he's being over-courteous?

DirectDebacle wrote: »

If you like to drive fast and haven't the skill to safely move from lane 1 to lane 3 then you are probably not fit to drive on motorways and are driving on them at speeds beyond your capabilities. ?

Oh we've got a Lane 3 again have we? If Lane 3 is empty, then we don't have the question - I can move from 1 to 3 and back at my steady speed.

Now - look back at Lum's scenario - Lane 3 is filled with cars travelling in excess of the limit. To move from 1 to 3 would require brisk acceleration from 70 to 85, slotting into a gap between fast moving cars (including anyone else in Lane 2), pass the (possible)numpty and then back to Lane 2 or 3 and slow to 70 again. I (and my car) are capable of that but I judge that to be usually a higher risk than continuing in Lane 1.

DirectDebacle wrote: »

Shouldn't present any problem to a good driver

Well - if I'm following your advice and being behind the numpty instead and the numpty swings left without looking and meets the speed merchant; I've got to dodge the debris I suppose.

Oh and your linked page is interesting and quite right but doesn't actually add anything to this issue does it? What Bongles and Lum and I have all described starts from already being in Lane 1 at an appropriate speed for the conditions and deciding to continue to do so. None of us has mentioned going from Lane 2 to Lane 1 to undertake a vehicle in Lane 2... my interpretation of the Highway Code is that that would be a transgression.

The linked page also states this is a rare phenomenon. I agree - I've only seen it maybe a dozen times.

cyclonebri1

NBLondon wrote: »

I don't use any 2-lane motorways.

I'm talking about the likelihood of there being someone numpty-ish enough to a) drive in the overtaking lane when the left lane is empty and b) change back to the left lane with no obvious reason or warning.
I don't know for sure because I don't drive on any 2-lane motorways and haven't seen any examples.

Not that there's no risk but observing them and judging that risk.

The presence of a junction increases that risk.

The presence of a previous driver to their left also increases the risk. (I think I've said that 3 times now).

Oh we've got a Lane 3 again have we?

If Lane 3 is empty, then we don't have the question - I can move from 1 to 3 and back at my steady speed.

Now - look back at Lum's scenario - Lane 3 is filled with cars travelling in excess of the limit. To move from 1 to 3 would require brisk acceleration from 70 to 85, slotting into a gap between fast moving cars (including anyone else in Lane 2), pass the (possible)numpty and then back to Lane 2 or 3 and slow to 70 again. I (and my car) are capable of that but I judge that to be usually a higher risk than continuing in Lane 1.
Well - if I'm following your advice and being behind the numpty instead and the numpty swings left without looking and meets the speed merchant; I've got to dodge the debris I suppose.




.

You've not seen any 2 lane motorways so have no experience?, so why the hell do you feel qualified to comment, they are all around, and anyone who travels the network gets exposure to them, really, :o:o, I would be.


Your answers in the previous post are enough to hang a man, well done.:T:T:T

Your last comment that the highway code doesn't specifically apply to cars already in lane 1 beggars belief to be honest

Oh, and the assumption of the fact that the other driver is the numpty sums it up for me.

Have a good driving career, however short it may be:A

movilogo

Is it just me or are more and more people ignoring speed limits?

I rather find people are going slower - may be due to fuel cost.