MSE Blog: How councils make a farce of the parking ticket appeals system 11 November 2011 at 6:36PM edited 11 November 2011 at 6:39PM in Parking tickets, fines & parking 14 replies 3.7K views

Former_MSE_Guy

This thread is to discuss my MSE blog:

How councils make a farce of the parking ticket appeals system

Trebor16

Yes, I had this experience with the London Borough of Barnet over a PCN issued for a bus lane infringement.

The wording of the PCN was not legally compliant so I challenged it informally and formally but they rejected my representations.

So off to PATAS I went, with a previous judgment from PATAS on exactly the same issue in my hand. Barnet chose to challenge my appeal.

I appeared in person and the adjudicator was the same person who had ruled in the previous judgement that I was using to back up my case. When he commented that he was "unlikely to disagree with myself" I knew I was on a winner.

But it didn't have to go that far. Barnet could have accepted the representations I made but they chose to fight it. They were wrong and they changed the wording on their PCN's as a result, but they were arrogant enough to think they could tough it out.

Coupon-mad

About 90% or more of the Council tickets that people post about on pepipoo forums, end with the motorist winning. And often it's obvious the ticket should be cancelled (such as when someone is genuinely loading/unloading on a yellow line and can prove it).

Here's the current pepipoo Council tickets forum, just read a few of the daft - ill-reasoned, dismissive and often semi-literate - fob-off rejections Councils churn out every day before folding when they realise the person has not been fooled into paying:

http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showforum=30

Here's a typical example where a Mum and Dad are being forced to adjudication when they have correctly appealed, twice but been pathetically fobbed off and their appeals refused. They have proved that they were collecting a child - which IS NOT a contravention on a yellow line where it's only stopped for the purposes of the assisted boarding/alighting of a minor:

http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=65381

And here's a current case where the Council PCN showed the wrong PCN code. When the motorist pointed it out and asked for the PCN to be cancelled, the semi-literate reply from a clerk at the Council has tried to get him to pay a lower amount (an amount not supported by the PCN, an amount for a different contravention!). In other words, they are forcing him to adjudication even though they've admitted their error and KNOW the contravention code on the PCN definitely did not occur!:

http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=65002

The vast majority end with the Council losing at adjudication or not contesting at adjudication. Almost every Council plays the game of bluff described in MSE Guy's article. It's very, very rare to read of an early acceptance of an informal appeal - I go on pepipoo every day and there is almost never a case where a Council allows an appeal at the first attempt.


And then there's the continued use of flawed PCN wording where Councils have lost dozens of contested adjudications already. Here's a heads-up for anyone with one of these PCNs for a start:

TFL postal PCNs for moving traffic contraventions (such as box junction stopping) are usually legally flawed in the wording - but they still issue the PCNs now.

Hounslow windscreen PCNs are pretty much all legally flawed in the wording - but they are still slapping those dodgy PCNs on vehicles every day.


If Council Parking Appeals Depts got their house in order and applied the 'common sense' that the Chief Parking Adjudicator wants them to, motorists would have more respect for them.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/motoring/news/8052777/Parking-tribunal-chief-tells-councils-to-show-common-sense.html

IMHO the Councils' behaviour is a deliberate attempt to generate revenue and is far worse than any contravention alleged in the first place.

:mad:



P.S. Anyone with any Council ticket should start a new thread on pepipoo as your PCN can almost always be cancelled if you know how to appeal and what to appeal about. In doubt? Try it out, post there with a pic of your PCN front and back - usually you have nothing to lose if you have just got your PCN, as Councils normally reinstate the discount if (and when) they reject a first appeal.

Certainly if you've had your car towed by a Council very recently, or got a PCN which is past the discount period, you may as well appeal all the way to adjudication. Nothing at all to lose by doing so, there are no added costs as long as you meet the appeal deadlines and do not ignore any letters.

peter_the_piper

MSE_Guy wrote: »

This thread is to discuss my MSE blog:

How councils make a farce of the parking ticket appeals system

I hope this is emailed to all people registered so that more than those interested in parking issues see it.

peter_the_piper

Trebor16 wrote: »

Yes, I had this experience with the London Borough of Barnet over a PCN issued for a bus lane infringement.

The wording of the PCN was not legally compliant so I challenged it informally and formally but they rejected my representations.

So off to PATAS I went, with a previous judgment from PATAS on exactly the same issue in my hand. Barnet chose to challenge my appeal.

I appeared in person and the adjudicator was the same person who had ruled in the previous judgement that I was using to back up my case. When he commented that he was "unlikely to disagree with myself" I knew I was on a winner.

But it didn't have to go that far. Barnet could have accepted the representations I made but they chose to fight it. They were wrong and they changed the wording on their PCN's as a result, but they were arrogant enough to think they could tough it out.

I've seen hundreds on pepipoo.com where the councils are blatently in the wrong, try to convince the victim to pay. Often they don't even turn up for adjudication having strung the driver along right up to the last minute hoping they will cave in.

Coupon-mad

Just another classic example.

Sheffield made this guy go to adjudication over the fact that he had discovered that a Sheffield bus lanes Traffic Management Order had expired more than 10 years ago! It seems to affect 'Queens Road and seven other locations' according to the initial newpaper exposure last month:

http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=66090

Silly Council, they could have just cancelled his PCN and not got a decision 'officially' about it. But no, they pushed the matter and they just lost at adjudication, so expect an update in the Sheffield press soon. It seems that none of those bus lanes actually have a Traffic Order - so they are NOT bus lanes and the Council will have a huge refund bill on their hands now.

Thing is, that's our public money the Councils are spending on such mistakes...:mad:

oldone_2

The problem with council tickets is that the officials who take appeals all the way to a tribunal and lose are not spending their own personal money in doing so, as a result they have nothing personally to lose if they are stubbon and insist they are always right.

Make the Council officials accountable for their actions in some way, and the number of informal appeals allowed will increase.
Alternatively, any and all appeals including informal representations, should be decided by an independant body such as PATAS.

Trebor16

The other area where councils should be taken to task on is thier use of discretion. The law allows them to use it, but it is rare that they do. My bus lane PCN was for entering a bus lane that was only 40 yards long on a day in between Christmas and the new year. There was no traffic at all as most people were off work, but the council still issued a PCN and the question of discretion didn't even cross their radar.

I make no apologies for taking them on and winning given their intransigence and lack of flexibility. You had a much better chance of discretion in a bus lane when stopped by a police officer. Local authorities don't know what the word means.

peter_the_piper

Coupon-mad wrote: »

Just another classic example.

Sheffield made this guy go to adjudication over the fact that he had discovered that a Sheffield bus lanes Traffic Management Order had expired more than 10 years ago! It seems to affect 'Queens Road and seven other locations' according to the initial newpaper exposure last month:

http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=66090

Silly Council, they could have just cancelled his PCN and not got a decision 'officially' about it. But no, they pushed the matter and they just lost at adjudication, so expect an update in the Sheffield press soon. It seems that none of those bus lanes actually have a Traffic Order - so they are NOT bus lanes and the Council will have a huge refund bill on their hands now.

Thing is, that's our public money the Councils are spending on such mistakes...:mad:

If I've read the above correctly they are now saying it was won cos signage was incorrect, nothing to do with the out of date temp order. Have to wait till Monday when they copy the adjudicators decision.:(

daveyjp

Councils should have to pay costs for lost cases. £1000 a time should see them get it right, £2,000 if they go to the wire then submit no defence.

Coupon-mad

A poster on pepipoo says 'Medway's taxi bays are unenforceable yet the Council still issues PCNs there':

http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=66265

And he mentions that tickets issued by Smart cars there may also end up having to be refunded.

Good job with our money, Councils. :mad: