Train/metro penalties

VinceNoir

vax2002 wrote: »

It is the old TV licence trick, the revenue protection staff are trained to use deception to obtain a confession contract from the person avoiding the fare, they then offer a settlement and if this is refused they have what is effectively a signed confession with name, date of birth and signature of someone agreeing to represent the contract/ confession.
Yes it is deception, yes it is legal.

Sounds exactly like what happenned.

macman wrote: »

But appeal against what? She wasn't under duress, she was offered the 2 options and chose to pay an on the spot fine, The byelaws clearly state that you must have a valid ticket in order to travel-she knew that and made a decision not to.
How would you begin to determine who had already received a warning and who had not-that would require verifying the identity of every offender before issuing a warning, because repeat offenders would simply claim that it was their first time.

Don't they need to establish the identity of the person when issuing an on the spot fine? So they could establish this, pass the details back to head office, then check their records and issue the appropriate warnign or penalty.

Jeff_Bridges_hair

VinceNoir wrote: »

There's really no need to be patronising. I'm just trying to find out where we stand and have every intention of paying, as long as they acted properly and within the law. Like my experience with unfair parking tickets, the people trying to extract as much money as possible from you often don't.

The people who issue the penalties probably do receive abuse etc. but my wife would certianly never do that and I don't think it's right to assume everyone will be like that and act in a threatening manner towards a woman travelling alone. She really is quite upset at the way she was treated.

Thats fair enough if they were overly heavy handed towards her then make a compliant to GMPTE about this. But she was not under any duress when she boarded the tram in which prevented her from purchasing a ticket Which is the main issue here.

I apologise if I sounded patronising but there is a marked distinction between a private parking company and the Revenue inspectors who are empowered by law to issue legally binding penalty fares - which are of course allowed an appeals process also.

VinceNoir

Jeff_Bridges_hair wrote: »

Seriously OP your starting to get very wrong advice on this thread now and some very dubious advice form people who think this is deception.

Unless I've missed something, no one has advised me to do anything.

I thought it would be something along the lines of what you've said. If it's legally enforcable fine, I'm willing to pay it as I know she was in the wrong. In a nutsehll, it sounds like the penalty is issued by a proper authority and is legally enforceable. I know these things are nigh on impossible to fight, even if ou do have a case.

However, if like with parking tickets, it was issued by someone who who is just trying to rip me off and will use any and all means to do so, including deceptive and threatening letters, I'm not going to take it lying down.

VinceNoir

Jeff_Bridges_hair wrote: »

Thats fair enough if they were overly heavy handed towards her then make a compliant to GMPTE about this. But she was not under any duress when she boarded the tram in which prevented her from purchasing a ticket Which is the main issue here.

I apologise if I sounded patronising but there is a marked distinction between a private parking company and the Revenue inspectors who are empowered by law to issue legally binding penalty fares - which are of course allowed an appeals process also.

No problem, I wasn't clear on this in the first place. The bold part is preciesly what I wanted to know, so thanks for your advice.

I've not had a chance to speak to her properly about how she was treated, she sounded quite shook up on the phone. I think we'll treat this separately from the penalty if needs be. Pay it and complain about the staff separately.

vax2002

The people issuing the penalty fare have no authority above a private citizen.
However they are trained to gather evidence and obtain confessions.
As travelling without a valid ticket is a criminal offence what happens if it is not paid is they will present the evidence to a magistrate who can issue a summons, it has to be done by a magistrate who can then hear the evidence of the private citizen on behalf of the train company in establishing if a criminal act has occurred and issue judgement accordingly.
They may use names such as Inspector, enforcement officer, but they are just meaningless titles.
If you as pointed out above totally ignore them on the day they would have no other power than to request and constable of the law be brought to apprehend the fare dodger for the criminal offence.
Anything they have obtained is simply evidence to be presented before the magistrate in asking the magistrate to issue summons.
If you agree to pay the excess fare, they wont ask the magistrate to have the case set.

Jeff_Bridges_hair

Thats the best way forwards, But remember they will get lots of complaints from people who will claim that their staff are heavy handed and would have mystery shopped this to make sure that the complaints are all well and true.

Yes some will slip the net but its far better to complain about it separatly from the PF as it has no bearing on the outcome of travelling without a valid ticket.

Jeff_Bridges_hair

vax2002 wrote: »

The people issuing the penalty fare have no authority above a private citizen.
However they are trained to gather evidence and obtain confessions.
As travelling without a valid ticket is a criminal offence what happens if it is not paid is they will present the evidence to a magistrate who can issue a summons, it has to be done by a magistrate who can then hear the evidence of the private citizen on behalf of the train company in establishing if a criminal act has occurred and issue judgement accordingly.
They may use names such as Inspector, enforcement officer, but they are just meaningless titles.
If you as pointed out above totally ignore them they would have no other power than to request and constable of the law be brought to apprehend the fare dodger for the criminal offence.
Anything they have obtained is simply evidence to be presented before the magistrate in asking the magistrate to issue summons.
If you agree to pay the excess fare, they wont ask the magistrate to have the case set.

See this is the wrong advice I was talking about. Inspectors do have powers above a normal citizen - in fact they are charged with the duty of Investigating Railway offences within the codes and conduct of PACE which gives them the ability to legally caution and investigate someone who they suspect has comitted an offence on the railway. This includes anything from a PF to also going down the full TIR route and preparing a full statement ready for court.
It is also an offence not to give your name and address when asked or to give false information upon which checked is proven to be false.

Some also have the pwers of restraint whilst upon the railway carrying out their duties.

vax2002

Any citizen has the power or ability to caution someone, a caution is a statement that you intend to take a record of the conversation and use it in evidence, it can be read by any citizen at any time to anyone.
Just as any citizen can act under pace regulations and guidelines as they duly see fit.
The only person who has ANY authority upon the transport network above a private citizen will be in possession of a warrant card and either a plain clothes police officer or a uniformed constable.
I am not aware of any transport staff who carry warrant cards.

VinceNoir

I think it's largely irrelevant (to me at least) if they have authority or not. The system will be weighted massively in their favour. If it were between two "normal" citizens it would be a your word vs mine case. I highly doubt that would be the case here.

Jeff_Bridges_hair

vax2002 wrote: »

Any citizen has the power or ability to caution someone, a caution is a statement that you intend to take a record of the conversation and use it in evidence, it can be read by any citizen at any time to anyone.
Just as any citizen can act under pace regulations and guidelines as they duly see fit.
The only person who has ANY authority upon the transport network above a private citizen will be in possession of a warrant card and either a plain clothes police officer or a uniformed constable.
I am not aware of any transport staff who carry warrant cards.

All RPIs carry a warant card,badge and number. You just dont want to accept that they have powers enforced by law and given to them in the absence of any Police officers ebing on the service.

Im not going to go any further because you obviously know best with your insider railway knowledge gleaned from years and years of working closely within the rail industry.

I bow down to your superior knowledge