Train/metro penalties

VinceNoir

I've used the advice of MSE on parking fines to good effect. My problem now is that my wife has received an on the spot "fine" for using the metro in manchester without a ticket.

She hardly ever uses it, but did today because she was running late, the tram pulled up before she had time to buy a ticket.
I was wondering if a fine like this is similar to a council parking ticket, and can be enforced through the magistrates court, or if it's more like a private parking ticket where they'll send you threatening, but hollow, letters demanding payment.

I've yet to see any paperwork she has been given as it only happened this morning. She had the option of paying on the spot or giving ID and can pay (or appeal) within 14 days, which begs the question what if you don't have cash or ID?

vax2002

It is a simple contract she has entered in to and may have signed , she will have agreed to represent that person, agreed to what was read, agreed to "understand it" and given her name.
If she obliges the contract, she will pay the standard penalty fare, if she does not the contract may be used as evidence of Regulation of Railways Act 1889 and she could be summonsed to the magistrates court and criminally convicted.

Jeff_Bridges_hair

Your in the wrong forum for this but DO NOT ignore this in the same way as a fine from a PPC.

This is NOT a 'fine'. This is a 'Penalty FARE' given to your wife because she was travelling without a valid ticket. This is issued in accordance with the relevant bylaws surrounding travelling on the railway.

She can appeal but she will lose. It is the responsibility of the passenger to purchase a ticket before they board the service where facilities are available. The fact that she was running late does not mitigate this and is not seen as an excuse for travelling without a ticket.

you can find more info and get the same response HERE

If she refuses to pay the Penalty fare then they will take her to court and this could end up with her getting a criminal record. Do not risk it. And hoepfully she may learn a little lesson in the process.

VinceNoir

Thanks vax, I'll have to have a good look at the paperwork later.

I wonder if it would be grounds for appeal if she felt she was under duress? She said she did feel quite intimidated as there were a couple of imposing fellas with the woman who issued the ticket.

I think a £50 fine is way over the top for a first offence, paying the fare and a warning would be adequate, with a fine the second time round. But extracting more money from us is the first course of action in this country.

Jeff_Bridges_hair

Again. It is not a fine.

You could try the duress because the lady who issued the penalty fare has some people there to actually support her from getting involved with fights and the foul torrent of abuse that people give them when they catch them without a ticket but again I doubt that would wash especially as she had already boarded the service because she was late. She didnt not buy a ticket because she was under any duress apart from being late. Terrible trying to find an alley in which to work your way out of admitting that your missus messed up.

You idea that a warning before a penalty fare is pointless I'm afraid and unworkable. The first course of action was for yoru wife to purchase a ticket to travel before she boarded the service. This she neglected to do I'm afraid so she was correctly issued with a penalty fare.

macman

But appeal against what? She wasn't under duress, she was offered the 2 options and chose to pay an on the spot fine, The byelaws clearly state that you must have a valid ticket in order to travel-she knew that and made a decision not to.
How would you begin to determine who had already received a warning and who had not-that would require verifying the identity of every offender before issuing a warning, because repeat offenders would simply claim that it was their first time.

pogofish

She may have been better-off by refusing to provide any details in the first place.

IIRC, she had no obligation to provide them unless the police were involved and the inspectors have no right to hold/obstruct her either.

vax2002

It is the old TV licence trick, the revenue protection staff are trained to use deception to obtain a confession contract from the person avoiding the fare, they then offer a settlement and if this is refused they have what is effectively a signed confession with name, date of birth and signature of someone agreeing to represent the contract/ confession.
Yes it is deception, yes it is legal.

VinceNoir

Jeff_Bridges_hair wrote: »

She didnt not buy a ticket because she was under any duress apart from being late. Terrible trying to find an alley in which to work your way out of admitting that your missus messed up..

There's really no need to be patronising. I'm just trying to find out where we stand and have every intention of paying, as long as they acted properly and within the law. Like my experience with unfair parking tickets, the people trying to extract as much money as possible from you often don't.

The people who issue the penalties probably do receive abuse etc. but my wife would certianly never do that and I don't think it's right to assume everyone will be like that and act in a threatening manner towards a woman travelling alone. She really is quite upset at the way she was treated.

Jeff_Bridges_hair

Seriously OP your starting to get very wrong advice on this thread now and some very dubious advice form people who think this is deception.

If you need any further and proper advice with regards to the penalty fare scheme pleaase visit the link I gave you earlier. I wouldnt go trying anything that some people are now starting to come out with as it could lead to even more drastic action towards your wife.


Deception :rotfl::rotfl::rotfl:

vax2002

You stand..
Under what she agreed to UNDERSTAND when she was asked if she UNDERSTOOD what had been said and signed to.
UNDERSTAND has two meanings, one is that you understand what your mate said in the pub.
The other is a legal meaning that you agree to understand as in Stand under the statements and contract/ confession presented.
So if they asked her if she "understood" and she said yes then signed, she has signed a confession and agreed to Stand under what was written upon it.

You do have a right to silence and for a very good reason.

This is the "legal" position she is in.
Not a very good one is the answer.