MSE News: Legal threats over solar subsidy cuts

Cardew

magyar wrote: »

Actually they sort of do - they subsidise the manufacturers rather than the homeowners.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2011/sep/12/how-china-dominates-solar-power

Yes agreed - in the USA they are furious about the manufacturers getting state subsidies.

My point was some people justify the UK giving householders these huge subsidies to stimulate demand, and hence reduce prices, when we don't manufacture* or develop the technology.

Yet China doesn't 'stimulate' internal sales by way of subsidies - they leave that to rich British electricity consumers;)

* Sharp just assemble for their Japanese parent company - who picked up huge regional grants for their factory in Wales.

zeupater

Cardew wrote: »

... * Sharp just assemble for their Japanese parent company - who picked up huge regional grants for their factory in Wales.

Hi

Again, I wish that this wasn't always raised as being a negative point .... is it possible that you have missed where the materials are sourced .... where exactly in Japan is St Helens ?, how many pv manufacturing plants do Sharp have for pv, is it better for the UK ecomomy that 1/3rd of the global plants (Japan/USA/Wrexham) is in the UK or elsewhere ?

I suppose that the same could be said for the automotive industry amongst others .... the Ford engine plant, JLR, Nissan, Toyota, Honda .... all foreign owned and all have received subsidy of one form or other, including regional grants .... I suppose that we should just tell them to 'go away' because they're not welcome here .... of course not because it would be amongst the most rediculous things that anyone would ever consider doing. We should be welcoming anyone who wants to manufacture in the UK with open arms and support them to the hilt by buying their, I'll correct that, our home manufactured goods in preference to others where competitiveness, functionality and quality allow .... Jobs, Tax-take(even after subsidy), and export earning potential, that's what subsidy buys and it's almost certain that the balance of subsidy to economic benefit is heavily tilted towards the benefit side ....

HTH
Z

Cardew

zeupater wrote: »

Hi

Again, I wish that this wasn't always raised as being a negative point ....
HTH
Z

In the context I used it, IMO it isn't a negative point and any work in UK is to be welcomed.(including car assembly)

You I believe, amongst others, have advanced the theory justifying the UK kick-starting solar usage as a means to eventually bring down prices.

Well why the UK?

China, the USA, India etc are happy to open coal fired power stations by the hundred and not provide any(very little in the USA) subsidies for their citizens to have solar PV.

Largely the research and production on solar is carried out in USA, China, Germany and Japan and they are the countries who will benefit from increased solar sales.

We covered the car issue before and again I don't think your analogy holds water. It might be appropriate if those who could afford to buy New Toyota/Honda/Nissans received a big subsidy from those who couldn't afford to buy a new car.;)

LILLYBET

I have not seen any comment on the numbers of people who will be put out of work due to the Govt change of mind on the FIT. Spare a thought for the small companies who may well go bust because of this instead of griping about the massive subsidies we supposedly pay (?)......I was about to order my panels from a small local company and heard that his order books are now empty as he cannot get the panels anywhere. He has lost thousands and thousands of pounds worth of oreders and will be out of business by January. Oh, he was not a money grabbing sort of chap - kept his prices at a reasonable level and did a great job. A great Christmas he and his family and employees will have!!!!!

pwg_blt

Cardew wrote: »

Yes agreed - in the USA they are furious about the manufacturers getting state subsidies.

My point was some people justify the UK giving householders these huge subsidies to stimulate demand, and hence reduce prices, when we don't manufacture* or develop the technology.

Yet China doesn't 'stimulate' internal sales by way of subsidies - they leave that to rich British electricity consumers;)

* Sharp just assemble for their Japanese parent company - who picked up huge regional grants for their factory in Wales.

China introduced a FiT last month. Easy to look down on the Chinese however they have turned an expensive technology £1+/W into a system that can be paid for by most at 40-60p/W. Plus now that China is producing on such a large scale (largest in the world), we will see further price drops. Remember the UK is still years behind much of Europe/America on Solar PV take up. When you look at other self producing systems such as air thermal convection then we are living in an exciting age. Lets embrace countries like China making it viable for the masses.
I own a business which runs a "rent a roof" scheme and the government is right when you consider companies such as myself are/were benefiting from families paying higher fuel costs. It will focus me/my industry on more creative way of generating profit from renewable energy which will hopefully benefit us all rather than relying on the gravy train.

terry2

SallyKing wrote: »

Surely you wouldn't need hydro to supply the entire grid for a day? That sounds a little daft to me. We would have nuclear, coal and gas power stations supplying the grid as well.

No of course you don't need to supply the grid for a day - what you really want is the ability to supply lots of the grid for months (which is why hydro is a non-starter). You need to store the surplus energy generated from solar in the long summer days, plus the energy generated by wind in the blustery autumn, and give it back when it is really needed - during the cold windless winter period.

jcontest

I have had several quotes this week.
For a 4kw system (I have a small roof and would need efficent panels) I have been quoted 5k+(Panel cost), 18k!!, and Just over 11k. The 11k offer hasnt been returned in "Writing". The panels I need would cost about 8k retail at the moment.

The payback at the moment is too high, no doubt. There should have been a bit of balancing put in place from the start, where the new buy-in price would adjust yearly with average install cost (and only downward at that). Even assuming I paid 18k now, and 18k is 2-5k over the odds. Payback would be in 15 years (I am calculating all possible losses in this system, something most installers do NOT calculate).

There's no doubt that the price will drop, and drop a LOT. I think the average 4kw install is running around 10k right now, paying off sometime probably around year 8. To get to that year 8 mark on the new system you would need installs to reach 5k, that's not going to happen just because of the install cost.

The biggest thing people need to look at right now (those who are looking to install) is really how much can you get on your roof, 10% index linked returns (based on average install) isnt bad. I am even considering paying the 18k, I know it's well over the odds, but I am investing 18k and getting a 7% gov secured index linked return, I dont think we'll see those any time soon in the UK by the banks.

Brian99_2

Graham - no solution is simple or cheap. I didnt say it was. I was pointing out one solution, hydro power, easy to control, which has been used for decades, and more will be needed. I don't intend to do all the calculations.

SallyKing

China always seems to get a mention for its coal fired power stations but no one ever mentions their wind turbines.

At the end of 2010, wind power in the People's Republic of China accounted for 41.8 gigawatts (GW) of electricity generating capacity,[1][2] and China has identified wind power as a key growth component of the country's economy.[3] With its large land mass and long coastline, China has exceptional wind resources.[4] China aims to “have 100 gigawatts (GW) of on-grid wind power generating capacity by the end of 2015 and to generate 190 billion kilowatt hours (kWh) of wind power annually”.[5] Researchers from Harvard and Tsinghua University have found that China could meet all of their electricity demands from wind power through 2030.[6]

By the end of 2008, at least 15 Chinese companies were commercially producing wind turbines and several dozen more were producing components.[7] Turbine sizes of 1.5 MW to 3 MW became common. Leading wind power companies in China were Goldwind, Dongfang Electric, and Sinovel[8] along with most major foreign wind turbine manufacturers.[9] China also increased production of small-scale wind turbines to about 80,000 turbines (80 MW) in 2008. Through all these developments, the Chinese wind industry appeared unaffected by the global financial crisis, according to industry observers.[8]

In 2010, China became the largest wind energy provider worldwide, with the installed wind power capacity reaching 41.8 GW at the end of 2010. According to the Global Wind Energy Council, the development of wind energy in China, in terms of scale and rhythm, is absolutely unparalleled in the world. The National People's Congress permanent committee passed a law that requires the Chinese energy companies to purchase all the electricity produced by the renewable energy sector.[1]

As part of the environmental goals included in China’s 12th Five Year Plan (2011 – 2015) targets have been set for non-fossil energy to account for 11.4% of the total energy consumption, and for CO2 discharge per unit of GDP to reduce by 17%.

Liverpool_Red

Hi Guys and Girls, Ive read with interest your posts.

I am sitting on a fence (painfull).

Ive been given a quote for £11500 and promised it will be done before 12 December.

The company seems a good one. Installed a lot on the Wirral.
The details are :-

Solar Panels
15 x Sharp NU-245 (J5)

Inverter
Aurora PVI-3.6-OUTD

I wondered if you know anything about these and is it a good price?

Thanks in advance
Ian