Incensed again

jem16

Bigsmak wrote: »

Hey.. not been on for a few days.. Unfortionatly it was the rep who addressed the masses that said this on the stage. I did say to my better half did she give you that in writing and I couldn't find it in writing.

Thanks for getting back to us.

However what you are now saying is a little different to what you first said.

Bigsmak wrote: »

My Girlfriend is a Teacher. She had a Union rep come to her school last year actively encouraging them to strike. She was told that she would be better off stopping paying into the teachers scheme and taking out a private pension instead.

OMFG... I read the propaganda that the union rep had left them. It made me very very angry to the crap that people are being told in order to make decisions on one of the most important things in their lives.

You implied that the "Union" rep had left propoganda which now seems not to be the case.

I was wondering whether she would have been actually talking about AVCs or the pension as a whole as that is a different matter.

As I said it was much more likely to be a rep from the Prudential pushing AVCs. Each school has its own rep and wouldn't normally be preaching to the masses on a stage.

BobQ

Bigsmak wrote: »

Hey.. not been on for a few days.. Unfortionatly it was the rep who addressed the masses that said this on the stage. I did say to my better half did she give you that in writing and I couldn't find it in writing. I was wondering whether she would have been actually talking about AVCs or the pension as a whole as that is a different matter.

THanks for clarifying this matter. We have been having quite an intense debate about this while you have been away.

cos_2

As regards local authority pensions schemes being fully funded (many pages ago - I lost track), I know that my LA scheme is, indeed, fully funded and capable of maintaining pensions for the foreseeable future.

My contributions, when I worked there, were around £270 per month. The employer contributed around £900 per month. That gives an idea of how much taxpayers' money is used to support 'fully funded' LA pension funds.

atush

Bigsmak wrote: »

Hey.. not been on for a few days.. Unfortionatly it was the rep who addressed the masses that said this on the stage. I did say to my better half did she give you that in writing and I couldn't find it in writing. I was wondering whether she would have been actually talking about AVCs or the pension as a whole as that is a different matter.

Thanks for getting back to us. And if you can, ask the GF to ask the advisor what is what (but w/o giving away anything). Will be intersting to know, as we have all been wondering/debating/arguing whatever lol.

We have had NHS workers here saying the same, but not a teachers union member (whichever one) before that I have read- but I don't read everything.

Hope you are at least, talking the GF to keep her pension going. Not because I don't want her to strike, but because it will be the best decision for her.

don't know about anyone else, but I am strangely beginning to miss the days of "can I cash in my pension" every day lol. We used to get them daily, incl a few from idiotic PS workers, but now not so much since the sticky post. I have to admot, I am now getting bored with this debate as some don't believe the posts and some do and it is just a turkey shoot now:eek:

michelle1506

I too find this total private v public debate extremely tedious and boring zzzz. Nothing will ever change, I personally can't be bothered to reply anymore to such posts. Let them have their view I say! Wont match mine of course, but I will just leave them to get on with it all! Nothing better to do except picks holes and point the finger.

dshart

michelle1506 wrote: »

I too find this total private v public debate extremely tedious and boring zzzz. Nothing will ever change, I personally can't be bothered to reply anymore to such posts. Let them have their view I say! Wont match mine of course, but I will just leave them to get on with it all! Nothing better to do except picks holes and point the finger.

Well with that sort of attitude nothing will change, people put forward credible arguments as to why change is required and instead of trying to prove why you think they are wrong you just bury your head in the sand and say you cant be bothered any more.

All I can say is good luck with your strike, but I know that if by some chance the unions do succeed and they do overturn the government plans it will only be putting off the inevitable and further down the line the changes will have to be more drastic.

Moby

bilbo51 wrote: »

I think the salient point here is how do we (UK Limited) pay for public and private pensions?

Private sector pensions are by and large paid for by the private sector through direct contributions.

You of course forgot to add that the private sector include the costs of their schemes when priceing their goods and services that we all pay for!

And public sector pensions are by and large paid for (eventually) by, well, the private sector through taxation (as are the taxes that public sector employees pay if you think about it!)

A generalisation that's not strictly true... you do realise that some of the public schemes are actually self funding eg LGPS. The funds taken by the Government from this scheme will be used to contribute to the deficit left to us by the casino bankers. That is how hard working public sector workers are rewarded in this country!

It's impossible for it to be any other way because the wealth of the country is produced by the private sector, and the public sector is entirely funded from this wealth and current borrowing. Let me know if this isn't clear, and I'll explain further if necessary.

Bilbo...you are being clear but are also wrong. Its all very simplistic I'm afraid and you have fallen for the typical Tory worship of 'wealth creation' and 'entrepreneurs'. These real 'wealth creators' are actually few and far between. Most of us are grunts trying to earn a crust and in reality Government contracts provide huge amounts of work for the private sector eg construction industry. You also overlook the fact that many researchers,medics, engineers etc get their initial training in the public sector and then move to the private sector to triple their income later in their careers. It is a symbiotic relationship; one of the few successes in this country is the pharmaceutical industry and that industry would not exist without the NHS. Also look at how we have slid inexorably towards recession recently. Growth will be stunted and unemployment will grow now that the public sector is being slashed. Of course people in the south will not notice this so much but the North, Wales and Scotland are hugely dependent on the public sector. Its simply crude to talk about the private sector as being the 'wealth creators'. As far as my own scheme is concerned the Government also overlooks the fact that the LGPS directly invests millions of pounds annually in British firms and jobs.

So you can campaign until you are blue in the face but private sector pensions will never (again) reach the benefit levels that currently exist in public sector schemes. And the reason for this is that we live in a competitive commercial world, and if we (UK Limited) put up our prices to fund increased pension provision, then nobody would buy from us and we would enter the downward spiral.

And then where would we be?

In the same boat as Greece I suggest.[/

Lets face it.....how many of you taking this stance have done any campaigning on this issue. Seems to me your campaigning extends to pointing the finger at colleagues in the public sector. Is that it? How about exhorting the CBI to impress upon its major stakeholders to pay their fair share of corporate and personal taxes to help fill the public deficit, instead of joining the ideological attack on public sector workers who directly contribute billions of pounds to the UK economy in tax and national insurance contributions. Some of you above are talking about 'change' being needed I certainly agree and you mention Greece......interestingly....one of the huge issues in that country is tax avoidance. Its huge issue here as well......in the private sector!

Old_Slaphead

real1314 wrote: »

There have been plenty of opportunities for you to join the public sector; why didn't you go for it?
If you really are old, you must have either failed on loads of applications or not had the gumption to apply. :cool:

Ouch!

I've done my stint of boxticking in the Civil Service (HMRC).

Had to escape to the real world after a couple of years before too many brain cells atrophised (and due to my inability to cope with the stifling 'rules' and bureacracy and the petty-minded empire building culture).

dshart

Moby wrote: »

You of course forgot to add that the private sector include the costs of their schemes when priceing their goods and services that we all pay for!


A generalisation that's not strictly true... you do realise that some of the public schemes are actually self funding eg LGPS. The funds taken by the Government from this scheme will be used to contribute to the deficit left to us by the casino bankers. That is how hard working public sector workers are rewarded in this country!


Bilbo...you are being clear but are also wrong. Its all very simplistic I'm afraid and you have fallen for the typical Tory worship of 'wealth creation' and 'entrepreneurs'. These real 'wealth creators' are actually few and far between. Most of us are grunts trying to earn a crust and in reality Government contracts provide huge amounts of work for the private sector eg construction industry. You also overlook the fact that many researchers,medics, engineers etc get their initial training in the public sector and then move to the private sector to triple their income later in their careers. It is a symbiotic relationship; one of the few successes in this country is the pharmaceutical industry and that industry would not exist without the NHS. Also look at how we have slid inexorably towards recession recently. Growth will be stunted and unemployment will grow now that the public sector is being slashed. Of course people in the south will not notice this so much but the North, Wales and Scotland are hugely dependent on the public sector. Its simply crude to talk about the private sector as being the 'wealth creators'. As far as my own scheme is concerned the Government also overlooks the fact that the LGPS directly invests millions of pounds annually in British firms and jobs.

Lets face it.....how many of you taking this stance have done any campaigning on this issue. Seems to me your campaigning extends to pointing the finger at colleagues in the public sector. Is that it? How about exhorting the CBI to impress upon its major stakeholders to pay their fair share of corporate and personal taxes to help fill the public deficit, instead of joining the ideological attack on public sector workers who directly contribute billions of pounds to the UK economy in tax and national insurance contributions. Some of you above are talking about 'change' being needed I certainly agree and you mention Greece......interestingly....one of the huge issues in that country is tax avoidance. Its huge issue here as well......in the private sector!

Your first point is no longer correct as majority of company final salary schemes have been closed. Now the employers and employee contributions are paid into a private pension fund with no further call of the company for funding.

Regarding the second point you make, if the pension schemes are fully self funded by only employer and employee contributions with no further call on government funds then I have no problem with them. But majority of public sector schemes require additional funding from government coffers and it is these schemes that are adding to the national debt. The whole point of the changes is to make all the schemes more affordable (even with the changes they will still be in deficit and require additional funding).

I agree that there is a need for a public sector workforce and that they should have fair pay and conditions for the work they do, but this should not come at just any cost. The services they provide must be affordable which is currently not the case.

With regards to campaigning for fair pensions for private sector workers, people do campaign and they use unions too to put pressure on companies to improve pay and conditions, we also campaign by voting for whichever party we feel will listen to our plight and change things for the better. But you never hear of majority of these campaigns because we cannot call the mass strikes that affect everyone, we cannot hold the country to ransom. How many times do you ever read in the papers about workers in a company with say 500 workers going on strike over pay and conditions? You may hear about companies like BA or railtrack or BAA strikes but that is only because it affects the general public.

I agree tax avoidance is an issue that needs to be tackled too especially the tax avoidance by big multi-national companies, it is just one of a host of things that need to be done to address the national debt. But there is no point ignoring the fact that majority of public sector pensions are unaffordable just because some other private company doesn't pay their correct taxes.

Koicarp

dshart wrote: »

But majority of public sector schemes require additional funding from government coffers and it is these schemes that are adding to the national debt. The whole point of the changes is to make all the schemes more affordable (even with the changes they will still be in deficit and require additional funding).

Can you reference all that?