BBC Thursday: The Future State of Welfare

drc

I used to go on a forum for mum/baby related stuff. I remember once there was a question about disposable income and several of the members who were reliant solely on benefits were saying they had disposable incomes of £500+ per month which I was really shocked about. These members tended to have 3 or more kids.

I do think that the benefits for having children (tax credits and child benefit) are set way too high for each child. I understand that the intention was to ensure that child poverty was/is a thing of the past but I think this is such a simplistic way to ensure that (if you even believe that absolute poverty exists in this country). Poverty can be about so much more than household finances and I think just throwing money at families does not solve the problem any more than giving the proverbial man in Africa a fish every day will teach him how to be self sufficient rather than teaching him how to fish. I also feel that Labour's policy over the past 13 years to vastly increase the amount of benefits that can be received for those with children (again to reach their target of eradicating child poverty) has completely removed the whole hard work=reward mentality of times past. If you can "make" £45,000 per year from having children or you can make £45,000 by working slowly up the career ladder and doing plenty of jobs you don't want to do, many people would choose the former.

The_White_Horse

John_Pierpoint wrote: »

"There is no such thing as society" -- Margaret Thatcher ?

taken out of context, but i am happy with that as long as i don't have to pay taxes to support it.

wotsthat

drc wrote: »

I used to go on a forum for mum/baby related stuff. I remember once there was a question about disposable income and several of the members who were reliant solely on benefits were saying they had disposable incomes of £500+ per month which I was really shocked about. These members tended to have 3 or more kids.

I'm pretty cynical about benefits but I find this difficult to believe.

I'm not doubting that they said they had disposable incomes of £500+ per month but wonder if they understood what a disposable income is.

Is it really possible to have this level of disposable income on benefits alone?

John_Pierpoint

I think you need an income of £500 a month to bring up three kids. The real question is why are these women on benefits - not how can we penalise the kids.
I can remember what a struggle it was, when we had only one (earned) income coming in.

What Does Disposable Income Mean?
The amount of money that households have available for spending and saving after income taxes have been accounted for. Disposable personal income is often monitored as one of the many key economic indicators used to gauge the overall state of the economy.

Read more: http://www.investopedia.com/terms/d/disposableincome.asp#ixzz1cV6ovqk6

Going4TheDream

John_Pierpoint wrote: »

he real question is why are these women on benefits - not how can we penalise the kids.

They are on benefits because the system has allowed them to be quite simply.

And now due the escalating welfare bill, other perhaps more deserving people are being squeezed to try and reduce the bill.

Until they are denied on going benefits each time they produce another benefit baby or refuse a paying job in the instance of men who refuse to work but have families then the circle continues.

The mentality has to change from an expectation the state will keep you for life to it is a safety net in times of need.

drc

wotsthat wrote: »

I'm pretty cynical about benefits but I find this difficult to believe.

I'm not doubting that they said they had disposable incomes of £500+ per month but wonder if they understood what a disposable income is.

Is it really possible to have this level of disposable income on benefits alone?

I'm pretty sure they did. There are a lot of very savvy people out there who are well aware of what they are "entitled" to. One particular member was getting full housing benefit for a very large 4 bed property (she had managed to find a 4 bed at the rate of a 3 bed), tax credits for her 3 kids, child benefit, income support, free school dinners, plus one of her kids had ADHD so she was also getting help for that. The whole feel of the forum was not to be judgemental and quite often a member would get pregnant with their 3rd/4th/5th/6th child quite by accident (is that really possible) but there were no worries as the state would pick up the tab and all the other members would be rushing sycophantically to congratulate the member. Unfortunately these cliches really do exist and in quite some numbers.

What I found quite funny was how often there were threads by some of the mothers complaining that the state wasn't paying them enough in benefits and how outrageous it was that child tax credits were halved once the child hit 1 year old because "kids cost more as they get older". Well...duh!

zagfles

Going4TheDream wrote: »

My parents, and my Ni/taxes now pay towards my mothers pension

and your point was?

That people who whine about subsidising children through their taxes usually forget all about the subsidy they received as a child. Whether from their parents or from the taxpayer, or both.

As well as forgetting that the subsidy will be returned when they themselves are old and the "children" grow into working age adults.

Of course those who think all children are "scum" had better make no retirement plans at all, there is no way anyone working today will ever be able to retire if all the children now and those yet to be born turn out to be benefit scrounging scum. Because there'll be nobody to do the work. Won't matter how much you've saved, someone needs to provide the labour. It'll have to be the pensioners...

ukcarper

wotsthat wrote: »

I'm pretty cynical about benefits but I find this difficult to believe.

I'm not doubting that they said they had disposable incomes of £500+ per month but wonder if they understood what a disposable income is.

Is it really possible to have this level of disposable income on benefits alone?

This got me thinking so I had a quick look, a couple with 3 children would have about £1300 a month after rent and council tax.

wotsthat

ukcarper wrote: »

This got me thinking so I had a quick look, a couple with 3 children would have about £1300 a month after rent and council tax.

No worries about redundancy, being able to pay the mortgage or saving for old age.

It's not a lifestyle choice I'd make but I can see why people might.

gailey_2

ukcarper wrote: »

This got me thinking so I had a quick look, a couple with 3 children would have about £1300 a month after rent and council tax.

Depends on their situation.

are they single parent?
both unemployed?

as rent would be paid
so would council tax
kids would get school meals saving £120 a month
free eyetests dental
healthy start vouchers-money off grocery bill

so tax credits, child benefit would be paid as cash on top of benefits mentioned above.

for 3kids cb is £180 a month.
tax credits unsure but the top threadshold is approx £6000 a year so approx 400-500 a month.
if one parent seekinbg work or ill jsa/incapacity
some parents get disability payments for the most minor things according to some forums which is approx £240 a month.

Every now and then you get a closer/daily mail article especially near xmas of how families on benefits have very expensive xmas.

Some people do play the system see that on mums forums a lot!