MSE News: 'We need war against student fee confusion'

flimsier

wozearly wrote: »

If you read Martin's 10 points in the article for this thread, or Martin's 20 points (a more expansive version covering less critical and non-universal points), then you'll see he does point out the flaws. In capital letters.

His task force role isn't to champion the new system, its to ensure would-be students understand it, so that they can make informed decisions about whether this will impact their decision on whether or not to go to university.

When the new system was first announced, quite a few people on this forum completely misunderstood how certain bits of it (sometimes critical bits) would actually work - its not particularly intuitive, it doesn't act like other loans and has built-in uncertainty about repayments.

Ultimately whatever your view of the new system, its what we (currently) have and would-be students have to deal with it. All Martin is trying to do is make sure they made decisions because they understand it, warts and all, rather than making decisions based on misconceptions.

It seems a bit harsh to accuse him of being untrustworthy because he's doing that. Campaining to change it to be more favourable to students is a completely separate issue - I'm not convinced Martin with his MSE hat on would be the most appropriate person to champion that.

So it's his task force now? I thought it was the governments'. It certainly has the full backing of David Willets and the government. To say it's completely impartial is to ignore who set it up, and their reasons behind setting it up.

Sorry, but I don't understand why Martin needs to government for this. He didn't with PPI, nor does he with energy prices. And he's not being listened to because it's a government task force.

And I know why Martin says he's involved. In fact, I think he's honest in his intentions. But he's now a part of an institution that will influence him, and is nakedly using him as a part of their propaganda war.

Oh, and I've read exactly the pieces you point to.

Last, where have I accused him of being untrustworthy please? Or retract that. Argue with what I write; not what you want to assume I write.

flimsier

anselld wrote: »

He could equally well campaign for better understanding without heading a government task force

...and hence probably be listened to by the students at my school who are taught, correctly, to question to provenance of the message.

spheric

kayr wrote: »

Don't know if this is the right one (haven't watched it yet) but found this by googling:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b016k86j/Inside_Out_West_24_10_2011/

Thanks, kayr! That looks like the right one...

kayr_2

Well I've watched it now. I like Alvin Hall - the way he says things makes me feel positive and optimistic! I thought ML's point about confusing price tag and cost was very good. The girl in the item seemed very sensible but I do wonder why they picked someone wanting to do Media Studies! I would have been interested in hearing a potential science student's thoughts too. However I felt the image of the student running through the streets to escape his debt was rather misleading.

I think it is very hard for young people, given the problems with debt many people have and the country has, to separate SLs and normal debt. OK they are technically adults at 18 but many just have not had enough experience of life to take all this stuff on board and put it in perspective, however much financial education you give them. They will have "debt", even if they may not have to pay it off. Is it so wrong that they instinctively feel responsible for their debt? I actually am encouraged by the fact they are taking the prospect of debt seriously. Of course it's not traditional debt (unless the government are more dastardly than I believe and do make changes to the T&Cs!) so it would be a shame if students are needlessly put off doing sensible university courses.

I was looking forward to hearing how Alvin Hall tackled his student debt when the item finished rather abruptly - hope they let him talk in more depth about this issue as he is a good communicator.

melancholly

kayr wrote: »

I was looking forward to hearing how Alvin Hall tackled his student debt when the item finished rather abruptly - hope they let him talk in more depth about this issue as he is a good communicator.

i think he's a great person to talk about finance issues and he did a good section on 'this week' recently. i haven't seen this interview yet but as a general point, i'd like more Alvin Hall on tv please!

nicknameless

setmefree2 wrote: »

I could go on but I will stop (you'll be glad to hear). I really, really don't understand MSEs position on SLs. How anyone can support this pile of junk is beyond me.

because somebody's a money making expert and any publicity is good publicity isn't it?

Wobblydeb

wozearly wrote: »

The UCAS applications from previous years that I could easily find are:

2011: 69,700
2010: 76,600
2009: 71,883
2008: 64,438

...just for reference.

Is this year of entry, or year of application? Are they taken at the same point each year?

p.s. Watch out for increases due to other admissions systems being absorbed into UCAS, such as NMAS.... I think that's what gave rise to the big jump 2008 to 2009.

2sides2everystory

I have watched the BBC Inside Out West item (thanks spheric and kayr) and I believe Alvin Hall adds nothing except the wrong side of the argument which is "deal with it". Sorry, but I don't do American.

I thought the theme of the student running from debt summed up the knot in young people's stomachs superbly.

The fact is that youngsters like Lauren who was the hardworking A level student wrestling with the UCAS deadline, and the other student who had gone to Slovakia to study have learned not to trust anything to do with financial services or to do with successive UK governments. UK financial services do constant rip offs and UK governments do wars that feed banks.

And I am sorry, Martin, but your talk of cost versus price is a complete mis-sell and I cannot understand how you can let such words come out of your mouth with so many obvious unknowns in the deal. I really can't. I understand your point about the tragedy of children missing life chances if they miss the chance of going to university but there is a much bigger picture of 7 BN on this planet which no university, bank nor government is addressing for the benefit of the 7 BN. The tragedy of not equipping our kids for the lives they are going to find themselves leading, if indeed it is occurring as you suggest, is squarely the fault of the governments and the banks who created such a mess.

That "runner" in the video was worried. And well he might be. Where can he run to if his name is linked for all eternity to a £50K loan he signed for in 2012 ? He can't. Just as it is true that there was more debt created last year in western economies like ours than all the debt ever taken on previously by our economies, it is true that last year there was more data created with our names against it than has ever been created before, and it is not being destroyed. It is being used to manipulate us.


I thought it was a massive eye opener that companies like KPMG are voluntarily offering fully paid intensive schemes. They are of course cherry-picking the best virgin minds and blank data record kids and experimenting to quite an extent.

If we are stuck with financial services in the UK then perhaps this is how we should make financial services pay for their mess. If financial services is so vital to the well-being of this country, then at least make them pay for higher education. Never mind paying lip service to lending to SMEs which we all know is actually like peeing beer against a wall once you tell 'Small to Medium sized Enterprises' that money is freely available and it ends up going largely to people who don't actually make the pies but indicate that they own a pie-making enterprise and who thought university was a lot of fun and the associated debt was no big deal ... hmm

Instead make the banks use that £75BN they just received on a plate in paying for university tuition. Let's have less Barclays Premier League ruthlessness, and failed AIG ManU, and more penance meekly paid through Barclays Brunel, Lloyds Loughborough and KPMG Keele. Only then, if they become a force for good, might they inherit the earth.

Until then, I'd recommend that everyone watches and absorbs that 18 minutes from the BBC and spares a thought for the kids running scared in our streets. Few of them have three jobs to broaden their minds or their bank balances and that makes them vulnerable.

Lokolo

It's not just the financial services though is it? They have played a big part of it lately, but the country has been running a deficit for a while now and its only lately that theres been an influx into the UK universities which is costing the UK more and more each year.

So surely its not just down to the financial services but down to the UK as a whole?

To be quite honest, its nothing to do with the past couple of years anyway. It hasn't help things but it never started it nor was the primary reason. The number of students is the primary reason.

setmefree2

wozearly wrote: »

Do you happen to know what / where this clause is? A few people have made oblique references to it here and in the press, but I've not been able to find it myself.

When you take out a loan, you will sign a declaration which will be a contract. This states that you have read and understood the Terms and Conditions. You must agree to repay your loan in line with the regulations that apply at the time the repayments are due and as they are amended. The regulations may be replaced by later regulations.

http://www.direct.gov.uk/prod_consum_dg/groups/dg_digitalassets/@dg/@en/documents/digitalasset/dg_194538.pdf
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