MSE News: 'We need war against student fee confusion'

flimsier

Charlton_Taz wrote: »

I do mostly agree with you! I think its a shame that the idea of people studying history / geography / english could lessen because of the 'fear' that you might not get a decent job afterwards.

But is it right that those people who do end up earning more (and thus paying a lot more tax, and as a result, claiming a lot less or no benefits, are now also being asked to effectively pay for their own degrees as well, and then also partly pay for other people who decide to do a degree 'just because they could' and then end up earning say £15K a year.

The message to me just seems wrong....do a degree for free if you want to go and do a job you could have done straight out of school...or pay tens of thousands of pounds extra (on top of lots of tax ) if you actually manage to 'succeed' and get a reasonably paid job.

I guess we have to realise (and we need to educate people due to go to university) that there are only so many well paid jobs out there and maybe we should attempt to align the numbers going to university to match this better.

Tax the people that earn more - I agere with that.

But don't tax them because they went to uni. Tax them because they earn more! It's a revalatory concept commonly known as Income Tax!!

flimsier

oldvicar wrote: »

According to the MSE news, the MSE :money:is head of a Task Force

That's the problem. He was appointed by those who want to sell the system, then claims he's not selling the system. Even my students who saw him at the O2 (Martin Lewis did a thing on stage at a sort of rock concert) said they didn't trust him.

WestonDave

Interestingly last night our local BBC Inside Out was on student finance - it did feature ML, but also Alvin Hall. I thought Alvin was probably the fairer of the two - he made it clear that this was a big sum that people may have to pay back (up to £75k including interest), or they may have to pay back nothing. He was reasonably positive about Uni, saying that as a product of the US system he'd left with serious debt but had "risen above it" and that others could do that as well. The point about the goal posts being moved by future governments was also made by another journalist. Probably not as positive a piece as Government would have liked but for a ten minute TV slot it was a pretty decent precis of the position.

It is clearly a whole different ball game from my era where I just about scraped out of Uni in 1992 without any loans (my last year was the first top up loan, and my parents opted to cover the loan amount as additional parental contributions to avoid me starting off in debt). However it was also different in that far fewer people went into higher education and if you only have a certain amount of money to spend on providing education, putting more people into it means the pot doesn't stretch to giving everyone the same free ride. By the time my kids get to Uni in 12 years time it may well have reverted back to a more genuine education for work/science basis rather than being what it has become for some - a means of hiding them from dole figures for 3 more years as they come out no better skilled for employment than they went in.

wozearly

flimsier wrote: »

That's the problem. He was appointed by those who want to sell the system, then claims he's not selling the system. Even my students who saw him at the O2 (Martin Lewis did a thing on stage at a sort of rock concert) said they didn't trust him.

If you read Martin's 10 points in the article for this thread, or Martin's 20 points (a more expansive version covering less critical and non-universal points), then you'll see he does point out the flaws. In capital letters.

His task force role isn't to champion the new system, its to ensure would-be students understand it, so that they can make informed decisions about whether this will impact their decision on whether or not to go to university.

When the new system was first announced, quite a few people on this forum completely misunderstood how certain bits of it (sometimes critical bits) would actually work - its not particularly intuitive, it doesn't act like other loans and has built-in uncertainty about repayments.

Ultimately whatever your view of the new system, its what we (currently) have and would-be students have to deal with it. All Martin is trying to do is make sure they made decisions because they understand it, warts and all, rather than making decisions based on misconceptions.

It seems a bit harsh to accuse him of being untrustworthy because he's doing that. Campaining to change it to be more favourable to students is a completely separate issue - I'm not convinced Martin with his MSE hat on would be the most appropriate person to champion that.

wozearly

setmefree2 wrote: »

Agree. The fact that ML fails/refuses to deal with the clause that allows future government to change the T & Cs of student loans makes his guide feel like government propaganda.

Do you happen to know what / where this clause is? A few people have made oblique references to it here and in the press, but I've not been able to find it myself.

anselld

wozearly wrote: »

His task force role isn't to champion the new system, its to ensure would-be students understand it, so that they can make informed decisions about whether this will impact their decision on whether or not to go to university.

... and that is where Martin has lost the plot on this issue in my view.

He could equally well campaign for better understanding without heading a government task force. As an independent he could campaign for understanding AND remain opposed to the increased fees.

As things stand, however, he cannot help being seen as a government appointed apologist for the new fee system.

melancholly

wozearly wrote: »

Do you happen to know what / where this clause is? A few people have made oblique references to it here and in the press, but I've not been able to find it myself.

it's exactly the same clause that's been in the loans since at least the 1998 implementation (i don't know about the system before fees very well!). so while perceived by some as sinister and scary, perceived by others as par for the course and part of the loans system. (and not too dissimilar to being able to remove an overdraft at any point or close an account at any point - granted the amounts are different but in principle, banks can make substantial changes to interest rates etc too - this isn't just a student loan issue)

spheric

WestonDave wrote: »

Interestingly last night our local BBC Inside Out was on student finance - it did feature ML, but also Alvin Hall.

I wonder why we don't see more of Alvin Hall, I find him really charismatic.

This sounds worth a watch on Iplayer, if its there... What region are you in?

kayr_2

wozearly wrote: »

Do you happen to know what / where this clause is? A few people have made oblique references to it here and in the press, but I've not been able to find it myself.

Here's a link:
http://www.direct.gov.uk/prod_consum_dg/groups/dg_digitalassets/@dg/@en/documents/digitalasset/dg_194358.pdf

This is a bit of the declaration students taking out loans for this year signed:

b I acknowledge and agree that any loan(s) made
to me by the Secretary of State for Business,
Innovation and Skills, ‘the lender’ (which
includes any persons exercising functions on
behalf of the Secretary of State pursuant to
section 23(4) of the Teaching and Higher
Education Act 1998 as amended from time to
time or successor legislation, ‘the Act’) will be
on the terms set out in the Loan Request Form
including these declarations and in Regulations
which are made under section 22 of the Act as
amended from time to time.

I imagine the bits in bold mean the lender can change terms if they want. (I'm not an expert though!)
Although I am disturbed by the new system, this issue doesn't concern me as much as some of the others (high interest rates, possible repayment penalties etc). However it is a possibility that there could be drastic changes. I personally don't think there will be, but what do I know?

kayr_2

spheric wrote: »

I wonder why we don't see more of Alvin Hall, I find him really charismatic.

This sounds worth a watch on Iplayer, if its there... What region are you in?

Don't know if this is the right one (haven't watched it yet) but found this by googling:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b016k86j/Inside_Out_West_24_10_2011/