EU referendum

Butterfly_Brain

Heres what the Tories think of a referendum

Foreign Secretary William Hague has urged Tory MPs not to vote for a referendum on the UK remaining in the EU, saying it would be a distraction

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-15412933

and even more of an eye opener

The three big parties at Westminster have told their MPs to vote against a motion calling for a referendum to be held on UK membership of the EU.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-15382019

The underlying truth is that there is no such thing as democracy in this country

A._Badger

Butterfly_Brain wrote: »

The underlying truth is that there is no such thing as democracy in this country

And that our politicians, almost without exception, are liars. At the last election, all three parties promised a referendum. All three of them lied.

Labour, to its eternal shame, established in court that no party can be held to its manifesto. It is time for that ruling to be overturned. We are governed by frauds.

Road_Hog

I don't think people realise how serious the situation. The EU is run by an ex-communist (probably still is, just not a card carrying member) Jose Barosso. It's all about control, anyone that is against it is bought off, it's why Euro 'sceptic' politicians never end up doing anything. It is now actually illegal to criticise the EU and they can at any time dissolve national parliaments.

Every thing that happens in the UK by way of legislation or directives is driven by the EU. For instance, some examples, Royal Mail sell off, EU directive, they want 2 or 3 pan European delivery companies that will be controlled by the EU, same with power companies and telecom providers etc. Speed limit going to 80 mph, nothing to do with safety/extra business, it is to bring us in line with the rest of Europe, what happened to all the speed kills mantra from the government. The new HS2 rail line, EU directive, the Channel Tunnel rail line was HS1 and there is HS3 in the pipeline, which is all part of a pan European transport system that will be run by the EU and will run alongside road charging when the Galileo satellite system is finally up and running.

We are being moved into what is called inter-dependency, which is the opposite of independent. We are as part of the globalisation project being made dependent on other countries.

To be independent (and if you want to leave the EU, you have to be independent), you need to be self sufficient in three core areas, which are,

Security (armed forces, not for foreign wars, but to depend your borders)

Energy (gas, electricty etc.)

Food (self explanatory)

There are other things (for the pedants) but they are the core ones that you can't do without.

As for the armed forces, well I think we all know what's happening with this and our sharing our aircraft carrier with France.

As for energy, I think most of you know that German & French companies own a huge chunk of this sector and that power is fed in from the Continent.

Most of you probably don't know that we have been in a steady decline of food self sufficiency since the mid '80s. In this table, look at the indigenous food column (all food doesn't matter, it we can't get mangoes, bananas, dates etc. we'll just have to eat apples etc.) , focus on 1984 and then follow it down.

http://www.fwi.co.uk/Articles/15/02/2011/125501/UK-self-sufficiency-in-food-how-bad-is-it.htm


For those that aren't bored yet, well worth a watch is this 10 minute video on the Lima Declaration. Starts off a little bit slowly and then really gets going, there'll be plenty for you to identify with in it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CWELNEJoX28

Generali

Road_Hog wrote: »

It is now actually illegal to criticise the EU and they can at any time dissolve national parliaments.

Do you know what the directive or law that was passed to allow this? It passed me by.

abaxas

Generali wrote: »

Do you know what the directive or law that was passed to allow this? It passed me by.

The dutch legalisation of cannabis would explain it all.

Optimist

Generali wrote: »

Do you know what the directive or law that was passed to allow this? It passed me by.

I believe the reference was to a case in 2000 where the European Court stated that the EU had the right to restrict political criticism for the good of the greater community.

Quick browse and it is case number C-274/99 P

Article in the Spectator

Oldernotwiser

I voted to stay in.

Actually, I'd like a United States of Europe.

Sorry.

vivatifosi

I don't think this is clear cut.

There are plenty of good reasons to be fed up with the EU: freedom from the financial mis-management (remember all the audit problems?); to save money as a net contributor; arguably freedom to set our own rules etc.

However we mustn't think this will be without cost. There are a huge number of foreign companies in the UK, in particular US companies, using the UK as their European base to serve the EU. There is a risk they will leave if there is no longer a benefit. There's also a very real risk that any new investment from English speaking economies will be lost to Ireland.

Additionally there's the possibility of retalliation by the people remaining in the EU. I don't think this would be a government action, more a popular, citizen led "well if they aren't going to stand with us we won't bother to buy their goods and services" type thing.

Personally I've always been more in favour of reshaping the EU from within for the types of reasons I've outlined above, but it is such a basket case at the moment with leaders who clearly aren't up to the job, who knows what to do for best?

Road_Hog

Generali wrote: »

Do you know what the directive or law that was passed to allow this? It passed me by.

Yes, it was the Lisbon Treaty, when I have a minute later I will find you a link. One organisation has already been fined this year for cricitising the EU, it's fairly indirect but the legislation was used. The Lisbon Treaty covers both aspects, including the dissolving of our parliament, also if I remember correctly, any anti-EU parties can also be dissolved.

Going4TheDream

I emailed my MP when it was announced there would be a debate. I received a letter in the week from him. Basically it points out the 'good' things that Eu does for us, how as many as 10% of the population rely on jobs, the amount of business etc we do with the Eu and that basically being a trade only member would still cost us but not give us the rights to form policy etc and the loss of certain benefits that we currently 'enjoy' etc etc. He then goes on to state that he too ' is frustrated with the interfering of our rules and laws and will be working hard to try and stem that. Basically stating the party line!

For me the problem with having a referendum is that many many people are truly uneducated about Europe and don't fully understand how Europe works, it is apparent on this particular forum people have in interest (and an opinion based on their interest) and will be more up to speed with things and would make informed decisions about how they may vote based on them if it ever came to that. However there are many many people who have no interest in such things and are led or driven by emotion of reading stuff in red top papers that sensationalize things, without giving the full picture. I am not advocating either way my views on leaving or staying in just that I find it potentially scary that a huge decision could end being made based on emotion rather than cold hard facts, and could it be a case of be careful what you wish for?