Oh deary deary me - another Macht Frei Moment

KxMx

You are very lucky robus that you were able to physically attend the Job Center on a regular basis to sign-on for JSA. Don't make the mistake of assuming since you could manage it, every disabled person can.

eskimo26

KxMx wrote: »

You are very lucky robus that you were able to physically attend the Job Center on a regular basis to sign-on for JSA. Don't make the mistake of assuming since you could manage it, every disabled person can.

The funny thing is he couldn't maintain his JSA because of ill health but he thinks its perfectly normal to force people onto JSA until their health deteriorates. I to was on JSA for a few months until i had a relapse, it was completely pointless the Government got nothing out of it and i ended up sicker then before, if anything with the extra NHS resources people will end up using it costs the Government a lot more!

This is what happens when you look for quick fixes, chronic conditions don't have quick fixes because the sufferer would have found it already. Trust me every person with a genuine chronic condition has a burning desire to look at everything and anyway to improve their health for the sake of their family and having a life.

robus

eskimo26 wrote: »

The funny thing is he couldn't maintain his JSA because of ill health but he thinks its perfectly normal to force people onto JSA until their health deteriorates. I to was on JSA for a few months until i had a relapse, it was completely pointless the Government got nothing out of it and i ended up sicker then before, if anything with the extra NHS resources people will end up using it costs the Government a lot more!

This is what happens when you look for quick fixes, chronic conditions don't have quick fixes because the sufferer would have found it already. Trust me every person with a genuine chronic condition has a burning desire to look at everything and anyway to improve their health for the sake of their family and having a life.

Yes when I received my refusal from ESA that said I was fit for work. So I made a telephone claim for JSA and went into the local office a few days later to sign everything up.
I stipulated that I could not do more than 16 hours a week and that it had to be reasonably local, could not do anything physical due to illness, and could not be placed in a busy envoirnment.
These were all acepted by JSA.

At the same time I appealed against the ESA decision.

After coming out of hospital I wasn't fit to do any work so signed off (well to be honest) they closed my claim on my behalf as I had not signed on for over 4 weeks. I then reclaimed ESA due to a deterioration of health which was accepted.

What I was trying to say is that the ESA system is all wrong. You still get your £65 even though you have failed the assessment.

You should be made to sign on for JSA in those circumstances (it certainly wasn't easy for me) then if you will the appeal you automatically should be put back onto ESA.

rogerblack

robus wrote: »

You should be made to sign on for JSA in those circumstances (it certainly wasn't easy for me) then if you will the appeal you automatically should be put back onto ESA.

So, you should lie, and claim you can do 16 hours a week - even if you can't?

Richie-from-the-Boro

As rogerblack says in #11 you can't legally claim JSA, unless you are available for work 16 hours a week, put the other way round being unfit to work means you also can not legally claim JSA. This therefore means you have nothing to live on, and having no income [ Article 6 (1) HRA ] would deny any individual access to a fair hearing.

Now that would make .. .. an interesting legal challenge.

Job seekers allowance claims on the rise but they are paying each individual substantially less than their previous sick / ill / disabled / allowance so they have at a stroke made a considerable reduction to the treasury / reduced the burden on the taxpayer than previously was the case. Add to the the impending high rate of JSA sanctions and that group again won't be able to full-fill their legally required obligation to their Job Seeking responsibilities

Brassedoff

Richie-from-the-Boro wrote: »

Because of the ESA backlog its a lot higher than than now, and if :

- 30% of those declared "fit for work" appeal, and 40% of them win
- the test itself is very badly designed and clearly flawed
- unless by design its just to get people off benefit regardless
- in which case the test is perfect and LiMA's inflexible design means a monkey could get the same result

You would have thought that they would have started a two tier system one route for ESA, one for DLA so appeals from one type do not affect the appeals of the other.

Mind you, the threat being dangled here is a bit like accept prison for 99 years, appeal and we will hang you.

Richie-from-the-Boro

see #1 then #10 then a further .. .. further .. .. follow up see : 18 Oct 2011 : Column GC52 in this document of just two days ago.

robus

rogerblack wrote: »

So, you should lie, and claim you can do 16 hours a week - even if you can't?

Yes, if that is how the system will be organised!

No one is going to go without money, if they cease to be entitled to ESA because they are considered fit for work, then they will have to claim JSA!

People will do anything and everything that will give them an income.
They certainly won't sit on their bum and complain about how the system has let them down and starve, are they?

Besides which I doubt very much that these 'failures' are not actually capable of working just over 3 hours a day!

I'm in the Support Group and run a business that makes very little money for me. I work upwards of 30 hours plus a week in that business under the Permitted Work rules and as agreed with the DWP!

robus

Richie-from-the-Boro wrote: »

Because of the ESA backlog its a lot higher than than now, and if :

- 30% of those declared "fit for work" appeal, and 40% of them win
- the test itself is very badly designed and clearly flawed
- unless by design its just to get people off benefit regardless
- in which case the test is perfect and LiMA's inflexible design means a monkey could get the same result

So in other words 70% of those that are found fit for work accept that determination and more than likely go on to claim JSA.

Those 30% that appeal, only 40% have the decision overturned.

In other words only 12% of the total that are found fit for work actually manage to win at a Tribunal - 88% look for a job and claim JSA!!!

Approx 1 in 8 - not a very significant figure is it?

rogerblack

robus wrote: »

So in other words 70% of those that are found fit for work accept that determination and more than likely go on to claim JSA.

Those 30% that appeal, only 40% have the decision overturned.

In other words only 12% of the total that are found fit for work actually manage to win at a Tribunal - 88% look for a job and claim JSA!!!

Approx 1 in 8 - not a very significant figure is it?

Hold on there!

You're lumping in several classes of people that don't go together.

You can claim ESA for a week or two, or slightly longer if you've broken an arm or leg, or six weeks if you're pregnant.

All of these cases - unless they go on to develop complications will be part of your 70% who do not appeal.

The 70% will also include those who instead go on to claim some other benefit apart from JSA - for example carers allowance, or live on other non-income-replacement benefits - DLA for example.

It will include those who do not understand how to challenge their decision, but would go on to win an appeal, and subsequently go on to JSA, and are repeatedly sanctioned as they can't manage.

It includes those who would be eligible for contributory ESA, but are put off appealing as they believe there is no prospect of success.

In addition to the group that you imply is the whole 70% - those who should be rightly turned down.